The key context to the USA’s relative passitivity with protesting is that we can easily lose our jobs for one of several reasons (none good) if we go protest AND that almost certainly will mean we will also lose our healthcare insurance.
The average person cannot weather an extra expense of only a few hundred dollars, has no savings, and borrowing money in that position usually leads to a debt trap where you’re continually punished for being in a temporary bad spot.
And that’s before we consider what cops and ICE are like here. They’ll just straight up murder us without consequences.
I get that the world is frustrated with us, but I also get that the world fails to grasp how much more desperate things have to get here in order to overcome the hurdles put in front of us.
I’ve tried with local people I know and can vet that aren’t MAGAts. No one was interested. We have an insane level of individualistic thinking in this country.
Define mutual aid. My local group has been recently focused on bolstering the local food bank, since we found out the state funding was getting stuck in the urban area and not making it to the (largely immigrant) communities of people who cant afford to live in the city.
The local food bank is entirely volunteer driven, they only have a facebook page, and no way to accept donations online. It directs people to mail a check, but most people just venmo the urban food bank and assume the money will come our way eventually.
Due to lack of funding, they don’t even have refrigeration, and thus can’t accept fresh produce donations from the local farms or community gardens.
Here in a few weeks, we’re planning a big donation drive and awareness campaign about the lopsided funding structure, and county council has been invited to hear us talk about implementing a more decentralized food distribution system.
Opinions on the fediverse seem to think this is just more ineffective shitlib harm reduction nonsense, and we shouldn’t be wasting our time on it. I want to know why they don’t want us delivering food boxes to neighbors targeted by ICE.
I’m not saying that your plan is bad or wrong but it’s not necessarily mutual aid.
What you are describing is one way aid, unless I am jumping to conclusions about the people who are organizing it. The problem with one way aid or charity is that it doesn’t build parallel systems to protect people when the state takes away things they depend on. This is why it’s not an effective support for direct action. If the people supplying the aid get scared or they lose their privilege, the aid stops.
I’m going to use strike support as an example. Striking workers may get strike pay, but it’s not enough to live off. They depend on the support of friends, family and other workers who are not on strike to meet their needs so that they can continue to strike until a fair(er?) deal is made. The idea is that when these people are back at work they can support another group who is striking.
In a more general example, I am a gardener. I can take my time to teach others how to garden. I can share my seeds and my produce. Maybe my neighbor can put aside his raked leaves for me to mulch my beds with? It might be easier to think of mutual aid as an informal economy where the goal is to distribute resources and knowledge for the purpose of making sure people are taken care of vs profiting. IRL my neighbor has offered his front lawn for more growing space, but I haven’t been able to take him up on it because poor health has stopped me from using all the land I have already. He can’t spare the time or labour to help rn but I know our produce delights him so I’m not going withholding it because I’m not getting anything in exchange.
Seettu is another example although it’s not a static thing and different applications may be closer or further from mutual aid than others.
It might be easier to think of mutual aid as an informal economy where the goal is to distribute resources and knowledge for the purpose of making sure people are taken care of vs profiting.
How is that not what I’m describing though? We want to break away from the formal system, that has failed us, and set up a parallel system of localized support.
I fail to see how bidding on a pot of money is more closely aligned with mutual aid than helping your neighbors distribute produce from the community garden.
How is that not what I’m describing though? We want to break away from the formal system, that has failed us, and set up a parallel system of localized support.
Again, maybe I am not understanding the details.
Are the people who are providing the food/funding/organization realistically likely to depend on this system in the future? I think it’s more important that they understand that they are building a system they will also rely on vs any “there but for the grace of god I go” type thought.
If so, then it’s mutual aid. If instead the parallel system depends on people with no connection to the need, it’s charity.
I fail to see how bidding on a pot of mone
I knew that wasn’t the best article but I didn’t want to depend on my own second hand experience to describe it because I am not Tamil.
The bid example didn’t include uses like the author describes in the beginning:
He depended on Seettu to meet emergency needs: when his wife and children arrived after he sponsored them, he used the money from Seettu to fund their settlement expenses.
It’s pooling money to be dispersed for the good of the community in the manner the community decides. It’s not perfect of course.
I’m getting too wordy here I think but the key idea is that in order for it to be mutual aid, all involved must be building a system they themselves rely on. That removes the power of the state to cut it off by threatening the most privileged.
Maybe I’m wrong but I thought charity was commonly used for tax benefits? Also shame. People donate to avoid looking to closely at themselves. And some people just realise they have more than they need.
I participate in charity, I don’t think it’s the worst thing although I understand the criticisms. If the choices are stretch myself further beyond my current capacity or auto donations to a rent bank I’m going to pick the donations.
I haven’t seen the criticisms you received so I can’t guess at what their issue was. Perhaps they were just starting shit.
None of this gets you a tax benefit, and the state doesn’t count food bank volunteer hours towards your food stamps hours or community service or anything. Another reason I say it’s mutual aid and not a charity.
We’ve also set up a tool library, and somebody is providing barn space for community repair projects. My partner is a carpenter by trade, and while he’s unemployed, he’s been showing people how to safely use the tools. I’m disabled, and unemployed, so I’m designing event fliers and providing web hosting for the group. Most of the group is low-income at best, but we absolutely chipped into a pot when a member had to undergo major surgery.
The criticism of charity that I’ve heard, is that by filling in the gaps left by capitalism, you’re postponing the revolution. People need to understand that capitalism is bad, and for that to happen, capitalism needs to fail utterly. Harm reduction and charity keeps capitalism from failing utterly, and is therefore a bad thing.
But honestly, I think 99% of the talk on the Fediverse about all this really is just people wanting to start shit. It’s easy to just say that Americans are incapable of doing anything, and then be derisive when somebody attempts to do something. I live in a rural town of less than 3k, thousands of miles from DC, so nothing I do will ever be big enough or good enough to change federal policy, and is therefore considered a waste of time by your average commenter here.
I suppose one could also measure against current standards in France, Spain, Albania and Serbia.
It doesn’t make any sense to say that people should first have to be comfortable and secure before they can protest. If Americans had the standard of living of a prosperous country, they wouldn’t need to protest.
Sure but your comment was a reply that was about the ALMOST 1800s.
So? People had to take shits in 1789, doesn’t mean they can just stop going now even though that was a long time ago.
Also, I already commented a link about the No Kings protests earlier in this post.
So which is it? Americans don’t protest significantly because they don’t have health care covered for protesting, or they do, and the No Kings protests are an example?
It’s obviously neither of these. Americans don’t protest against the government much because a) things simply haven’t gotten bad enough and b) Americans are indoctrinated into believing the US is the richest country in the world and simply don’t know how far the US economy has fallen behind the most prosperous countries in the world.
How sad to be putting in effort and have nothing to show for it beyond a chip on your shoulder. Holding a sign at your legally allowed “protest” for 10 years must be exhausting!
Do you think other countries subsidise protesting?
Yes your healthcare makes you all less free. Isn’t that worth protesting more? While I may be committing a false dichotomy it sounds like the choice is effective (economic) slavery or protesting.
Look. You use whatever excuses you need to cope with the situation. But at the end of the day, you better get used to living under a dictatorship because thats where you’ll be.
“Do what I tell you to do, or you’re just making excuses! There couldn’t possibly be other real factors that affect peoples’ lives that I haven’t considered!”
Man, how astute and useful. Do you think this won you the argument?
The fact is you all want to see one thing: for all those guns Americans own to be turned on each other. If you think that you’re advocating for anything else - or if you think there will be any other outcome - I don’t know what to tell you.
It’s real fucking easy to wag your finger and say, “Just do X!” as though we’d never thought of that!
Get a clue and understand that you don’t understand.
He said other countries. Not Europe. Dont be obtuse. If he meant Europe he should have said that or he has no consideration for how vast the world is or how dangerous it is for people elsewhere. Either way, its an ignorant statement.
I said other countries above, but obviously there are different levels. Western Europe isn’t at that stage yet (but you could argue the current situation in Europe doesn’t warrant such extreme protests yet and they would if it was warranted).
But some of the protests in, for example, Georgia (the country) over the last few years, are probably on that level and with good reason. And they should be respected—which you are not doing with those types of comments
Could be relevant if anyone had been talking about Georgia or it was in the meme. The only non-Western European country in there is Serbia, and it’s not Eastern European, it’s Southeastern European along with Greece et al.
Deleted my previous comment about 3 min after posting, wrote too quickly and missed point. Take 2.
Mate, this doesn’t show just Western Europe + Serbia. Albania is there too. I’m sorry that this memetic content does not satisfy certain implicit criteria you seem to have about generalising to the certain regions of Europe—ie those which have been protesting more than the last few weeks. And given all that, I have no idea what your point is. Protests that have had significant impact on people’s daily lives through protesting are not just during the Arabic spring but there are modern examples in Europe. If you agree with that, then what’s the discussion about?
Albania and Serbia are in the same region (and I didn’t decide that, the ‘Permanent Committee on Geographical Names - Ständiger Ausschuss für geographische Namen (StAGN)’ did), should have added that in my original comment but got distracted by my bus stop coming up.
My point is that sneering at Americans for not doing sufficient protest while tailcoat riding the Arab Spring protests as a European is hypocritical.
People are getting killed and maimed in the US for protesting, acting like everyone is sitting home twiddling their thumbs is just chugging the media narrative you’re fed.
The key context to the USA’s relative passitivity with protesting is that we can easily lose our jobs for one of several reasons (none good) if we go protest AND that almost certainly will mean we will also lose our healthcare insurance.
The average person cannot weather an extra expense of only a few hundred dollars, has no savings, and borrowing money in that position usually leads to a debt trap where you’re continually punished for being in a temporary bad spot.
And that’s before we consider what cops and ICE are like here. They’ll just straight up murder us without consequences.
I get that the world is frustrated with us, but I also get that the world fails to grasp how much more desperate things have to get here in order to overcome the hurdles put in front of us.
Why is cooperation and mutual aid so invisible to americans
I’ve tried with local people I know and can vet that aren’t MAGAts. No one was interested. We have an insane level of individualistic thinking in this country.
Community engagement has been slowly and deliberately eroded by both government and corporate interests.
Social Media is especially insidious. They want to drive everyone online into a space they can control and monitor.
Define mutual aid. My local group has been recently focused on bolstering the local food bank, since we found out the state funding was getting stuck in the urban area and not making it to the (largely immigrant) communities of people who cant afford to live in the city.
The local food bank is entirely volunteer driven, they only have a facebook page, and no way to accept donations online. It directs people to mail a check, but most people just venmo the urban food bank and assume the money will come our way eventually.
Due to lack of funding, they don’t even have refrigeration, and thus can’t accept fresh produce donations from the local farms or community gardens.
Here in a few weeks, we’re planning a big donation drive and awareness campaign about the lopsided funding structure, and county council has been invited to hear us talk about implementing a more decentralized food distribution system.
Opinions on the fediverse seem to think this is just more ineffective shitlib harm reduction nonsense, and we shouldn’t be wasting our time on it. I want to know why they don’t want us delivering food boxes to neighbors targeted by ICE.
I’m not saying that your plan is bad or wrong but it’s not necessarily mutual aid.
What you are describing is one way aid, unless I am jumping to conclusions about the people who are organizing it. The problem with one way aid or charity is that it doesn’t build parallel systems to protect people when the state takes away things they depend on. This is why it’s not an effective support for direct action. If the people supplying the aid get scared or they lose their privilege, the aid stops.
I’m going to use strike support as an example. Striking workers may get strike pay, but it’s not enough to live off. They depend on the support of friends, family and other workers who are not on strike to meet their needs so that they can continue to strike until a fair(er?) deal is made. The idea is that when these people are back at work they can support another group who is striking.
In a more general example, I am a gardener. I can take my time to teach others how to garden. I can share my seeds and my produce. Maybe my neighbor can put aside his raked leaves for me to mulch my beds with? It might be easier to think of mutual aid as an informal economy where the goal is to distribute resources and knowledge for the purpose of making sure people are taken care of vs profiting. IRL my neighbor has offered his front lawn for more growing space, but I haven’t been able to take him up on it because poor health has stopped me from using all the land I have already. He can’t spare the time or labour to help rn but I know our produce delights him so I’m not going withholding it because I’m not getting anything in exchange.
Seettu is another example although it’s not a static thing and different applications may be closer or further from mutual aid than others.
I hope this helps.
Good luck with your food drive.
How is that not what I’m describing though? We want to break away from the formal system, that has failed us, and set up a parallel system of localized support.
I fail to see how bidding on a pot of money is more closely aligned with mutual aid than helping your neighbors distribute produce from the community garden.
Again, maybe I am not understanding the details.
Are the people who are providing the food/funding/organization realistically likely to depend on this system in the future? I think it’s more important that they understand that they are building a system they will also rely on vs any “there but for the grace of god I go” type thought.
If so, then it’s mutual aid. If instead the parallel system depends on people with no connection to the need, it’s charity.
I knew that wasn’t the best article but I didn’t want to depend on my own second hand experience to describe it because I am not Tamil.
The bid example didn’t include uses like the author describes in the beginning:
It’s pooling money to be dispersed for the good of the community in the manner the community decides. It’s not perfect of course.
I’m getting too wordy here I think but the key idea is that in order for it to be mutual aid, all involved must be building a system they themselves rely on. That removes the power of the state to cut it off by threatening the most privileged.
Yes? Who else would care enough?
Maybe I’m wrong but I thought charity was commonly used for tax benefits? Also shame. People donate to avoid looking to closely at themselves. And some people just realise they have more than they need.
I participate in charity, I don’t think it’s the worst thing although I understand the criticisms. If the choices are stretch myself further beyond my current capacity or auto donations to a rent bank I’m going to pick the donations.
I haven’t seen the criticisms you received so I can’t guess at what their issue was. Perhaps they were just starting shit.
None of this gets you a tax benefit, and the state doesn’t count food bank volunteer hours towards your food stamps hours or community service or anything. Another reason I say it’s mutual aid and not a charity.
We’ve also set up a tool library, and somebody is providing barn space for community repair projects. My partner is a carpenter by trade, and while he’s unemployed, he’s been showing people how to safely use the tools. I’m disabled, and unemployed, so I’m designing event fliers and providing web hosting for the group. Most of the group is low-income at best, but we absolutely chipped into a pot when a member had to undergo major surgery.
The criticism of charity that I’ve heard, is that by filling in the gaps left by capitalism, you’re postponing the revolution. People need to understand that capitalism is bad, and for that to happen, capitalism needs to fail utterly. Harm reduction and charity keeps capitalism from failing utterly, and is therefore a bad thing.
But honestly, I think 99% of the talk on the Fediverse about all this really is just people wanting to start shit. It’s easy to just say that Americans are incapable of doing anything, and then be derisive when somebody attempts to do something. I live in a rural town of less than 3k, thousands of miles from DC, so nothing I do will ever be big enough or good enough to change federal policy, and is therefore considered a waste of time by your average commenter here.
We all live 25 miles away from our closest neighbor and we are incredibly stupid also
1789 was a year famous for its health insurance and job stability.
Ah yes, measuring against standards from 200 years ago. Classic way to do things. Literally.
I suppose one could also measure against current standards in France, Spain, Albania and Serbia.
It doesn’t make any sense to say that people should first have to be comfortable and secure before they can protest. If Americans had the standard of living of a prosperous country, they wouldn’t need to protest.
Sure but your comment was a reply that was about the ALMOST 1800s.
Also, I already commented a link about the No Kings protests earlier in this post.
So? People had to take shits in 1789, doesn’t mean they can just stop going now even though that was a long time ago.
So which is it? Americans don’t protest significantly because they don’t have health care covered for protesting, or they do, and the No Kings protests are an example?
It’s obviously neither of these. Americans don’t protest against the government much because a) things simply haven’t gotten bad enough and b) Americans are indoctrinated into believing the US is the richest country in the world and simply don’t know how far the US economy has fallen behind the most prosperous countries in the world.
K.
Surely if people do nothing that situation will get better, right?
No sacrifice no change.
You first. It’s real fucking easy to tell others to just go die because you’re frustrated.
It’s even easier to only care about any of this when it starts effecting you.
That’s a nice assumption you’ve got there, but you know fuck all about what I’ve been doing for the last ten years.
Enjoy your distance from the problem and the arrogance of assuming you’d do better.
How sad to be putting in effort and have nothing to show for it beyond a chip on your shoulder. Holding a sign at your legally allowed “protest” for 10 years must be exhausting!
Go fuck yourself. Sitting on the sidelines sneering at other is most certainly tedious and exhausting.
What would you do, tough guy? You wanna come and defeat all the baddies single-handedly?
You sir, are a fucking piece of shit. Cheers!
Your words have no effect on me. Familiar isn’t it?
Do you think other countries subsidise protesting? Yes your healthcare makes you all less free. Isn’t that worth protesting more? While I may be committing a false dichotomy it sounds like the choice is effective (economic) slavery or protesting.
That is not the choice we face. Disruptive protesting gets you killed in this country unless you’re “protesting” for fascism.
I do think other countries risk less when they protest, yes.
Ah yes, the Arab spring was famous for being low risk. Nobody died or risked their lives at all.
Jesus, this does not help the stereotype of Americans being ignorant as fuck about the world.
That’s a strawman argument. The Arabs were united enough to succeed.
Jesus, this does not help the stereotype of the angry internet commenter upon whom nuance and understanding are lost.
Look. You use whatever excuses you need to cope with the situation. But at the end of the day, you better get used to living under a dictatorship because thats where you’ll be.
“Do what I tell you to do, or you’re just making excuses! There couldn’t possibly be other real factors that affect peoples’ lives that I haven’t considered!”
Cool strawman. May I borrow it for halloween?
Cool armchair Mr. warrior, do you ever get out of it?
Man, how astute and useful. Do you think this won you the argument?
The fact is you all want to see one thing: for all those guns Americans own to be turned on each other. If you think that you’re advocating for anything else - or if you think there will be any other outcome - I don’t know what to tell you.
It’s real fucking easy to wag your finger and say, “Just do X!” as though we’d never thought of that!
Get a clue and understand that you don’t understand.
I’m sorry but comparing protesting in Europe to protesting in the Arab spring is nothing but auto-fellation.
He said other countries. Not Europe. Dont be obtuse. If he meant Europe he should have said that or he has no consideration for how vast the world is or how dangerous it is for people elsewhere. Either way, its an ignorant statement.
Must be convenient to lose all knowledge of what the entire thread is about to debate-lawyer.
Youre being deliberately obtuse. I know it. You know it.
Me when I pretend I can’t see the meme directly at the top of the page because someone said “other countries”: 🤡
I said other countries above, but obviously there are different levels. Western Europe isn’t at that stage yet (but you could argue the current situation in Europe doesn’t warrant such extreme protests yet and they would if it was warranted). But some of the protests in, for example, Georgia (the country) over the last few years, are probably on that level and with good reason. And they should be respected—which you are not doing with those types of comments
Could be relevant if anyone had been talking about Georgia or it was in the meme. The only non-Western European country in there is Serbia, and it’s not Eastern European, it’s Southeastern European along with Greece et al.
Deleted my previous comment about 3 min after posting, wrote too quickly and missed point. Take 2.
Mate, this doesn’t show just Western Europe + Serbia. Albania is there too. I’m sorry that this memetic content does not satisfy certain implicit criteria you seem to have about generalising to the certain regions of Europe—ie those which have been protesting more than the last few weeks. And given all that, I have no idea what your point is. Protests that have had significant impact on people’s daily lives through protesting are not just during the Arabic spring but there are modern examples in Europe. If you agree with that, then what’s the discussion about?
Albania and Serbia are in the same region (and I didn’t decide that, the ‘Permanent Committee on Geographical Names - Ständiger Ausschuss für geographische Namen (StAGN)’ did), should have added that in my original comment but got distracted by my bus stop coming up.
My point is that sneering at Americans for not doing sufficient protest while tailcoat riding the Arab Spring protests as a European is hypocritical.
People are getting killed and maimed in the US for protesting, acting like everyone is sitting home twiddling their thumbs is just chugging the media narrative you’re fed.
deleted by creator
If you get shot in the face with a beanbag round you don’t discover you are un-insured now half way through hospital intake