Wait until we find out that the school-assigned devices are always listening, and everything is being scanned for keywords by the NSA, and they’re taking action based on what they hear, arresting and deporting people.
It sounds insane, but this is MAGAmerica. If this was the top story tomorrow, I wouldn’t be surprised, at all. Think of this when the Administration says they are going to give a free laptop or tablet to every American schoolchild.
They give each kid in middle school and up a lenovo windows computer at mi kids’ school. My daughter does her school work on her Fedora PC, transfers the files to the lenovo over FTP, and uses it only in school. The funny thing is that she came home complaining about that, and I quote, “garbage computer they gave me at school, I can’t work on that thing”, and decided to instead use that workflow. I’m so proud of her 😍
Bring back the slate. Schools aren’t getting all of that extra money, big tech is. And big tech already has too much money and too much power and way not enough seriousness.
I think this is one of the biggest missed opportunities in education.
We put “technology” in front of students, but mostly in the form of locked-down devices, prescribed apps, and step-by-step workflows. That teaches compliance, not understanding.
There’s a huge difference between using software and understanding how it works, how to break it, fix it, or build your own.
Basic exposure to things like Linux, hardware setup, networking, and programming would give kids agency instead of just familiarity. Even if they don’t pursue tech careers, they’d come out far more capable of navigating (and questioning) the systems around them.
Digital safety is a big one. Not just “don’t click bad links” but actual operational awareness: privacy, tracking, permissions, data ownership. The stuff that matters in reality.
I get that there are constraints like funding, vendor lock-in, teacher workload, curriculum pressure. But the current model feels like it’s optimised to produce competent consumer users of systems, not people who can shape them.
Feels like a massive wasted opportunity.
Na the kids need a basic ass machine with only a command line like we did growing up on apple IIs
My first computer ran DOS
You’re partly right. Did you read the article? One of the chief complaints is that in fact the devices aren’t locked down and kids are using them for things like games and youtube.
You’re in a Lemmy echo-chamber for the rest of it. The average user isn’t us.
As for the rest, schools teach to the lowest common denominator. The article itself plainly shows that the people “in charge” haven’t a clue how to effectively monitor, limit, and control usage of these basic devices. So throwing more at them isn’t the solution when they can’t even manage what they’ve got.
How can one become a tech nerd without tinkering with things though?
Yes but modernOS are advanced enough you dont need to tinker at all, kids will just go to the “app store” install some gacha games and never learn s thing about how the computer actually works. Like that’s kinda what i did growing up except my first computer was command line only so i was forced to do some tinkering.
Tech isn’t the problem. It’s teaching kids to think critically. It’s hard to do regardless of what device you are using and it’s next to impossible with large class sizes.
Writing things out by hand does give kids time to think in larger classes where they can’t help guide their own lesson, though.
Bingo. Not a tech issue, it is a pedagogical issue. The way we teach hasn’t changed in 50 years. The problem is systemic. Teachers are taught to develop lesson plans in antiquated ways. Teachers aren’t encouraged or empowered to innovate. Funding is insufficient. Testing takes priority over learning because funding is tied to scores. Then you’ve got big tech lobbying to suckle at the teet of taxpayer dollars influencing decisions being made where the interest of children and learning is secondary.
With things like learning long division or cursive handwriting I think we frequently run into the doorman fallacy. There is so much value in teaching people to think and teaching people to learn that we get distracted by everything having to be a useful skill for future employment.
Reading the article it isn’t a problem with tech.
Yet again it’s adult’s inability, ignorance, or unwillingness to limit access to sites and place time limits on devices. Parents don’t parent, parents don’t want to deal with taking devices away, people can’t seem to manage parental controls or learn how they work on the device or the home LAN.
It’s not the tech’s fault. It’s the adult’s fault for not adulting.
(As a side note, people on lemmy need to remember that this is the “average” user, so when you suggest some stance on tech, this is the world outside of the fediverse where people can barely manage an iphone)
There should be 1 class for computer and tech. The rest of school can be done with pencil, paper, and a ruler.
Districts should stop playing the marketing game and spend money repairing buildings, buying up to date textbooks, and fucking paying teachers more.
I wholly agree. Bring Computer Labs back, ditch the chrombooks. Let kids actually learn to write and nottake, and fucking pay our trachers more.
I bet people down voting me are the sales reps that sell/lease thousands of iPads and Chromebooks to districts along with software licenses and contracts to supple the personnel to support that hardware.
As someone with troubles writing, screw you, having a computer in class would have made my whole education an order of magnitude less shitty. I’m downvoting you for your dumbass take, not for being an apple or google rep. (mostly the part about pens and papers, I agree on the part that big tech need to get bent too, and that no money should go in their pockets and probably should go somewhere else)
If your writting was part of a disablity, (and you didnt fall through the cracks) you’d get an 504 or IEP for accommadation.
If you were just bad at it, well join the club, my handwritting has always been terrible and I was forced to work at it until I improved it so it is at least legible. You learn skills at school. Writting to communicate, is one of those skills and it takes practice.
your writting will never get better if you dont practice it.
Well, I doubt the french ministry of education call them IEP or 504 (not everyone lives in the US, shocker), and anyway it simply doesn’t help if you are diagnosed loooong after the fact.
I’m sure spending close to two decades at school with nothing but pens and paper count as practice, right? Welp too bad it did nothing, my writing still sucked at uni.
My mum gave me her old slide-rule that she’d used as a kid. Kinda mechanical calculator, very early computing tech. She told me that there was debate about whether kids should be allowed to use them in school or just calculate manually. She said they were taught to do it manually then when they could do that they were taught slide rule, because many jobs would expect people to have slide rule skills.
When I was little, calculators still had kinda bulbs for each digit, then LCD screens came along and they suddenly got small and more powerful. There was the same controversy about whether we should be allowed to use them in class. We were taught how to do algebra n shit with paper and pencil, but also how to use the calculator.
This has worked for the past couple of generations of tech, I don’t see why this one should be handled any differently. Kids should learn Pythagoras and algebra n stuff, how to do it themselves. Then they should be taught how to do it using a computer, and all the other stuff you can do with the computer.
Honestly, computer lessons in schools need to step up, at least in my country. Back in the 80s we were taught on 32k ram BBC B computers - we only had to learn to code a bit of basic, but those of us who wanted to dig deeper could learn assembly, start fucking with registers n stuff, learning binary and hex. Gave me a very basic understanding of how a computer actually worked.
I’m told that in my country, kids these days are taught how to use office. And that’s about all. Fuckin shame and a missed opportunity for those children who are drawn to tech and want to dig deep.
So yeah, I’m just saying we gotta teach them to do math on paper, really understand it - and then we gotta teach them the tech.
One class seems too few. 75% of jobs in the US use computers regularly. Even the plumber shows up with a tablet and such. On top of that, what ever was the point in making us write the essay twice, rough draft, the final… and have to rewrite the whole damn thing if we made a mistake. When it comes to writing, computers are where it is done.
Math… yeah, pencil and paper, calculator for the high level stuff. History/social studies… videos and articles are just easier to distribute via computer. Though initial presentation with follow up commentary is ideal. I think computers are overused in school, but 1 class is too far in the other direction.Some classes can/should be done in pencil. Math for one is good.
I’d prefer a writing class in pencil as well. Everyones handwriting is going to hell.
I very much agree on math. But writing… I hardly ever handwrite anything anymore. Doesn’t seem critical. And more time spent learning what to write than how to handwrite seems like a good trade.
I think writing by hand is overrated. Said as a person who wrote non stop as a kid, whole little novels by hand. Much hand cramps. Much pain. Now carpal tunnel . Grew up pre internet. It wasn’t from computers.
I can write the same shit on a laptop, and without smearing shit because I’m left handed.
Ok, but you need a laptop instead of a scrap of paper and a random pen. In many cases, it’s just overkill.
Pay teachers more, free breakfast and lunch for every child. These two things are the only things that you can just throw money at to improve outcomes that can be replicated everywhere.
As a generalization, they don’t need more money for textbooks, they don’t need more tech, they don’t need building upgrades, they don’t need whatever the latest software scam is, etc.
If only… oregon pays teachers well, and does free breakfast and lunch. But the results don’t line up. There is more to it. To me it looks like the administration is often pretty terrible. But my sample size for that is small.
is 45,000 a year good for a job that requires a masters?
Average in orrgon is 77k. But don’t forget the pensions and such. In most other jobs, retirement money comes out of your pay. In states that have decent teachers unions (always blue it seems), it is on top of the salary. And it usually includes access to subsidized healthcare insurance for life. (All assuming you meet the retirement criteria).
Now imagine how bad the results would be without it…
Well you said they were the only things… we need to do more.
Teacher to student ratios?
Highly variable by district, and even school.
Yep, another thing that throwing money could solve. Imagine how much more attention students could get if classrooms maxed out at like 15. There’s a reason expensive private schools advertise small classes.
I saw somewhere that general tech in schools makes students worse overall by 2/3 of a standard deviation. A class on it is an great approach, and the constant live experimentation on our youth education needs to stop. The pain of learning isn’t optional, I say.
A proper typing and general computer useage class. With optional digital arts and coding classes. That way kids can learn to use a computer and have chances to actually put that general knowledge to the test and then expand on the skill.
Heaven knows my digital art class in high school actually taught me loads of things about how to use computers efficiently, manage back ups and storage, and other skills. It wasn’t JUST learn how to use Photoshop.
There are areas that can be improved to reduce waste tho. Providing e-reader for example instead of a full blown tablet to reduce book waste is I think would help. Plus students don’t have to lug around their textbook AND workbook at the same time. Like legit, tech can be helpful IF they are implemented TO ACTUALLY HELP and not to sell something
A bigger problem is school sponsored spyware on the devices. Weird how they don’t mention that:
https://www.eff.org/wp/school-issued-devices-and-student-privacy
https://time.com/7275031/spy-high-true-story-prime-video/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/19/schools-spied-on-students-webcams
I’m not sure how that’s a surprise to anyone. Keep your personal stuff off hardware that doesn’t belong to you.
No. Keep your creepy spy hardware off of kids that don’t belong to you.
They used the onboard cameras to take pictures of kids in their bedrooms.
That is a problem, but usage monitoring software should be expected.
Dude, don’t normalise this bullshit. Wtf.
What bullshit, making sure kids use school property only for school?
Or did you mistakenly think I was suggesting that accessing the webcam was a part of usage monitoring software?
Then keep it fucking at school.
It shouldn’t be in homes. Its a constitutional violation. Schools are state sponsored and tax funded.
They shouldn’t be legally allowed to record shit in a private home with out a warrant.
The school elected to enable TheftTrack to allow school district employees to secretly and remotely activate the standard webcam featured in all Apple laptops since 2006.[17][25][26][27] That allowed school officials to secretly take photographs through the webcam, of whatever was in front of it and in its line of sight, and send the photographs to the school’s server.[9][17] The system took and sent a new photograph every 15 minutes when the laptop was on, and TheftTrack was activated, though school employees could adjust the timeframe to as low as one-minute intervals.[9][28][29] LANrev disabled the webcams for all other uses (e.g., students were unable to use Photo Booth or video chat), so most students mistakenly believed that their webcams did not work at all.[30]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_District
And? I wasn’t talking about remote webcam monitoring software.
Then refusal to use it should also be expected, but they have zero accommodation for that.
Right, because it’s only supposed to be used for school purposes.
The school’s purposes don’t include scanning my home network. Why do their devices do that?
I can’t answer that with the limited information you’ve provided.
now try explaining that to a kid. it’ll maybe stick in high school.
It’s definitely a surprise to most students. Not really reasonable to expect people who have never been taught tech to understand tech.
It’s actually a pretty important lesson for them to learn
Good. My son’s school is already tired of me.
Tech has a place in the classroom, but that place isn’t “everything everywhere all at once” and I think there is a good value in teaching kids when they’re young when and where to put their phones and tablets down.
Tech has a place yes, the problem is school admins have chosen to use it as a replacement for competent, well compensated teachers.
But it’s the way of the future! How else are you going to learn a trade that trillions will be spent trying to make irrelevant?
The problem is they can’t control Chromebooks. Give them a Linux laptop with a purposeful distro that doesn’t allow them to play Minecraft. Boom, problem solved.
Minecraft isn’t the problem.
The problem is the 24/7 input of corporate right wing propaganda and brainwashing.
What does that have to do with computers?
A lot, TBH. The walled garden is everything in tech these days. When you control the platform and make it hard to leave, you control the flow of information.
What does that have to do with right wing propaganda? I’m just not seeing the connection.
When you control the device, you control the information allowed on to the device.
Are you suggesting the right wing somehow controls all compute devices? And if so, how?
The Trump administration already had apps removed from the Apple App Store and Google Play. (ICETracker, Tiktok was until it was sold to hard MAGA supporters)
Also, there have been many studies showing how YouTube videos will push right-wing agenda videos to people.
These are the 2 major aspects for chidren, locked down app stores and YouTube, both which have shown a favortism for right-wing politics lately.
This doesn’t include Tiktok’s new MAGA owners, Discord’s usage of age verifaction company Persona (which feds the info to the Trump administration) X(itter). Social media that force-feeds children right-wing propaganda.
It is, that’s what motivates my kids.
So a big problem is lack of control. If schools provide electronics they want it to be cheap, zero maintenance, and limited to academic work to the extent possible.
Kids want their control, they want their features and options, and yes they want to do other things. But not every kid can afford a laptop, not every kid can keep their laptop in working condition, and not every kid will focus on schoolwork as much as they need to
My kids are in college now, and the electric is requirement is “bring your laptop”
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you’re saying but this sounds like an entitlement issue. Kids don’t need to be able to do more than schoolwork on school provided computers.
Kids want to do more than schoolwork. Maybe that’s entitlement, but the point is they are going to bitch and moan because they can’t
My grandma used to say “put your wants in one hand and take a shit in the other and see which one fills up faster.”
The point is these are school computers, they shouldn’t be treated any differently than a computer lab computer just because they’re at your house.
Claude, please find a linux 0-day to root my school laptop so that I can play Minecraft.
If a fifth grader uses copy.fail to gain root access on their Chromebook I say we let them have some extra Minecraft time.
That’s fine, some kids will do that, and I hope they do. But they will be a minority.
It’s a valuable part of the education…
Once they do they’ll share it with friends and it will make its way around.
It’s literally what I did in school
And you probably learned a lot doing it. I know I did. Dunno if you’re old enough to remember Ninja Proxy but it’s what we used to bypass the firewall and I learned a lot about networking after that.
Not as good as searching the internet for the answer but it shows promise
In my son’s fifth grade class last year, it was fucking Cookie Clicker. 🙄
Why would the fuck Cookie Clicker? They hot?
He ain’t a bad looking dude tbh
The problem is there is no compelling data that these devices are superior for learning. They are distractions and expense with no proven benefit.
There’s some benefit… my daughter was assigned a Window 11 Lenovo the last two tears and now hates Microsoft AND Windows.
Her personal laptop runs linux.
You could have created a temporary dual boot to teach her that in a weekend. Parents are so lazy these days.
Nah, her kind of deep seated hatred comes from required usage over time, not from a weekend. Short term exposure just doesn’t do it.
It doesn’t matter if they’re superior or not, they need to learn to use them, because every job is going to expect them to be able to.
I think it would take a pretty big effort to keep kids from learning how to use basic functions on tablets or laptops. They are inundated with these in and out of school. They don’t need to use them in school to be comfortabke with them on the job market.
I’ve taught more than one college student how to Ctrl+c/Ctrl+v.
And yet a lot of kids are entering the workforce today not knowing how to use a computer mouse or what a web browser is.
Or a file system.
Probably best to focus on child labor laws then.
For young adults entering the workforce computer literacy is dropping DESPITE a clear increase in school computer use. This is not an argument for kids being shackeld to tablets for their school work. Basic computer science courses, typing courses and computer lab exposure are sufficient.
Most kids already don’t know
The devices for my kids saved me a crapload on buying textbooks.
They consider it a benefit that now they can hand in their assignment just before midnight Friday night the week it’s due
Tech shouldn’t be allowed in the classroom until high school.
Kids need to learn how to think, use their hands, eye hand coordination, basic reading and most importantly … have a freakin ATTENTION SPAN!!!
The modern computer, internet culture and social media are all designed to shorten a person’s attention span as much possible to turn their brain into pudding and market anything to them.
One of the greatest skills in life in being able to think for yourself, to wonder, to imagine and to question the world with just your own mind rather than in occupying every waking moment to a digital device.
What if I wondered, and questioned said digital device? One of the very reason I’m so much into computers is that I can actualy get shit done with them, give me a pen and a piece of paper and I’ll scribble totaly useless illegible shit, since that whole “hand eye coordination” simply never worked out for the decades I’ve been at school. On the other hand, I spent most of my free time since early childhood tinkering with those devious “digital devices”, I’m pretty sure I’m able to think by myself, my current linux distro didn’t magicaly appear by itself on my drive I guess.
Not sure if joking/trolling, but school computers don’t generally ALLOW social media or chat apps like Discord and such, as well as harshly limit internet usage with guardrails. They’re pretty locked down and even when at home monitor network usage.
I don’t like laptops and such in schools, but kids ARE going to need to know how to use them to be successful and that’s something a lot of parents can’t teach.
When I was growing up, we had to learn how to type, how to use the Dewey Decimal System and library terminals to look up where books were for research and such. Later, we had Computer Labs to do this work and write reports and such… This is no different. Don’t confuse a smartphone internet experience and its constant advertising and social aspects with what kids get on these laptops.
I don’t like laptops and such in schools, but kids ARE going to need to know how to use them to be successful and that’s something a lot of parents can’t teach.
they won’t learn from a chromebook how to use computers. They’ll only learn how to be a good slave in google’s cloud based walled garden. those devices are too locked down to be used for teaching computers.
I’d argue that they can still learn typing, researching, google docs (which, lets be honest, are close enough to microsoft, open or libre office to count), navigating the web, learning how to detect scams, AI and things like that… even on a Chromebook.
That said, my kid is about to go to college and hasn’t used a chromebook since 6th grade. I don’t currently know anyone whose kid has either. They’re just not used for schools much anymore. Their huge selling point was simplifying the OS support and battery life, but her current Lenovo lasts all day already as do most normal laptops at this point and GPO’s and AD are a things.
I’d argue that they can still learn typing
most chromebooks are touch screen only
google docs
indoctrination to the rent seeking and privacy invading lifetime cloud scam
navigating the web
with chrome, teaching them to accept all the forms of enshittification are normal that the chrome browser does not protect against but even support
That said, my kid is about to go to college and hasn’t used a chromebook since 6th grade. I don’t currently know anyone whose kid has either. They’re just not used for schools much anymore. Their huge selling point was simplifying the OS support and battery life, but her current Lenovo lasts all day already as do most normal laptops at this point and GPO’s and AD are a things.
didn’t know that, interesting
It sounds like we are part of the same generation (honestly, I don’t know or care what generation that is called, I just have a feeling you were born in the 70s and grew up in the 80s and 90s)
We got to see the internet come into being little by little over the 90s and early 2000s. At the time, we weren’t kids anymore and we did just fine keeping up with the technology. And I believe it was all down to our ability to be able to think, act and do things ourselves without any outside help. We grew up in an education system that forced us to think, to read, to write and to understand using nothing but our growing brain. We didn’t have the luxury of having a device show us pretty pictures or immediately calculate something for us. There is a lot to be said for a child that grows up and learns how to just write ideas, questions, answers and thoughts on an empty piece of paper with just a pencil or a crayon.
You can mimic all that on a tablet but the the process of using a tablet is partly entertainment because at one point, you start playing with the tablet rather than in learning how to draw a picture. When you have a pencil and a blank piece of paper, you have no choice but to use your mind and put something down on the sheet.
Because I grew up with new technology and the internet, I got to appreciate it all and I started tinkering with it all. I never turned into any kind of hacker or computer wiz but over the past 20 years, I’ve learned how to use/tinker/adjust/crack/tweak Windows, MacOS and Linux systems as well as build my own PC, recover old parts, mash together parts, keep laptops alive and recover tablets and devices. All done without any technical training other than what I learned from others online. In all that time, I got to meet and see so many young people who either didn’t know, didn’t care or were just ignorant as to how a computer even worked.
Another mother, Jenny Sullivan, said she has noticed her fourth grade son capitalizing random letters and not getting corrected
If it’s good enough for the President…
Did people honestly think giving 10 year olds school-issued laptops would end well in the slightest? Like, seriously?
I never knew of anyone who didn’t use their school-issued devices for anything other than browser games most of the time. They literally used it for games rather than school work.
You can’t hand them the reins and then complain that they’re even worse now. Schools are partially to blame for all this electronics bullshit kids are into these days. A lot of middle and high schools almost require students to have a fucking iPad these days.
This just reminded me; my first time playing Pokemon Gold/Silver was on a computer in my school library using a fan translation patch like 6 months before the English release.
Good times.
The biggest issues this article points out seem like failures of the IT department/teachers (or those telling the teachers how to teach).
It’s not hard to block a kid from running minecraft, and relying on duolingo to teach your kids is just idiotic. Why send them to school in the first place if they could just as easily do duolingo at home? Only let the kids have their devices out when it’s necessary for the assignment, and have them put them away when it’s not.
