It feel like we’re losing to Google, day by day. They aren’t killing AOSP directly, but they are making it useless step by step.
Now it’s Google Play Services, Play Integrity checks, installation source checks… more and more apps just refuse to run without GMS. Banking apps? Most of them don’t work. And it’s only getting worse. I run vanilla AOSP on my main profile, no Play Services. I keep GMS only in my work profile for the apps that absolutely need it. But now even some regular apps that don’t need any play services won’t work on my main profile anymore. They simply block your from running , like le chat.
Maps is google’s most important app there is no way to run without play services. Sure we can use webview or gmaps wv, but they don’t provide turn-by-turn directions. Earlier maps used to work without play services, but two years ago, an update stopped it from working. Now that old version is out of date and no longer works.
Google is slowly making GMS very important to run. The problem with GMS is they require to run as system app and has to have all the permissions by default.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
If we keep going on like this, AOSP can only run fdroid apps in the future.
I highly reccomend comaps which has turn-by-turn directions and doesn’t require Google services.
Wow, supports Android Auto too!
Edit: Says it supports Android Auto, to be clear - not tested by me, and issue(s) reported below.
I run GrapheneOS and organic maps was working fine with android auto. You have to enter in developer options to allow third party apps tho. I was using it in a restricted profile with only proprietary apps (like banking apps). Comaps is a fork of organic maps so it should work too.
Were you running the version on Google Play or the one from f-droid? I have a suspicion that the Google Play version has some extra sliminess that allows it to work with Android Auto.
Yes I was running the Google Play version. AFAIK it doesn’t work with the version from FOSS platforms unfortunately. It was a few month ago. I got tired of it and ditched it altogether. I find that a phone holder does the job with much less hassle.
I have the FOSS version installed and I ended up buying a phone holder as well. Music playing apps can with with AA, but it looks like navigation doesn’t unless there is some trick I haven’t figured out.
Maps?
Use OsmAnd and MagicEarth? I’ve been using it for years now. Works fine.
Also Theres comaps
I enjoy Organic Maps.
Comaps is the fork, we moved away from organic maps. You will find basically the same experience.
Some people say you can use a de-Googled Chromium browser to enjoy the fruits of Chrome without supporting Google’s ad business. I say just use Firefox.
By the same token, when some people say to buy an Android phone and deal with CFW, I say just get an iPhone.
I mean either way, Google gets your money and you contribute to Google’s market share by buying one. Not using Google Play Services as an individual does not hurt them nearly as much as their efforts to keep you from doing so implies it does.
Of course, switching phones can be costly, but if you’re in the market for a new one, I would say if you’re going to pay roughly the same price, let it be the more private one, albeit the one that is further from open source. I mean it runs iOS, which is a stripped down version of macOS, which is UNIX certified, but you can’t run a few apps that Apple doesn’t approve of. Fortnite is back and emulators are back though, so a lot of bases are covered.
That said… the keyboard sucks. Sometimes if I’m gonna be typing (e.g. using Lemmy), I’ll actually turn on my old Galaxy S10, just to use Gboard (which is on iOS but sucks there). I like my 16PM for a lot of things, but typing isn’t one of them.
So yes. You can stop rewarding Google’s bad behavior by not buying their phones. Draw a hard line between your personal data and their servers. But in doing so, consider getting in bed with a different monster rather than “the devil you know.” It’s not an easy decision. And, as a guy who’s been mainly on iPhone for almost 10 years… I kinda want a Pixel. Maybe not the newest one, but I mean, I’m using a 6-year-old Galaxy phone and it’s fine. I like both platforms. Both have their strengths. But I personally trust Apple more than Google. To each their own though.
It is only slightly on topic, but I’d like to give a hateful shout out to Ticketmaster/Live Nation’s new “mobile only” ticketed events that require you to have an iPhone or fully Google blessed Android phone. They do not allow you to use a QR code or printed ticket anymore, only their app with a constantly changing bare code or Google wallet (unsure of the IOS experience).
I am going to a concert this weekend and I either have to dig up some old phone that can work with this app or sell my tickets.
Someone recently crack their shit code. Can use offline app after extract secret once. Will link once find.
Edit: https://conduition.io/coding/ticketmaster/ app (javascript) https://github.com/conduition/ticketgimp
Linux phones won’t go anywhere, so you should probably donate to GrapheneOS and hope they have enough in the bank to fork android by the time it’s completely discontinued.
if u rely on GMS so much, have u tried replacing it with microG?
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For banking, I use the website instead of the application. I have very few non-open-source applications left on my phone.
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Of the largest android sellers, only samsung requires gplay. Xiaomi, vivo, oppo, realme, honor, are all chinese companies that require non-bundled google play for their domestic (and maybe other countries?) releases. Google can’t alienate these sellers, and if they did, all of these companies would create their own AOSP fork (or just switch to HarmonyOS)
I recently bought a xiaomi android tablet that doesn’t have google play services luckily.
Xiaomi is terrible when it comes to locked bootloaders unfortunately.
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Linux phone operating systems aren’t ready for daily use yet, but they are being actively developed. https://linmob.net/
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Actively developed sure but Linux phones are a solution looking for a problem. Who wants to run scaled down desktop apps on their phone and who wants a terminal on a phone either? I may be a Linux enthusiast but I want a phone that simply works.
Who wants to run scaled down desktop apps on their phone
I believe the UI of most apps could be made to work well with phone display sizes and resolutions.
and who wants a terminal on a phone either?
Well, I do! It’s great when you want to connect, do or automate something there isn’t an app for. For now I sometimes run Termux on Android. Among smartphone users in general I’m probably an edge case, but among Linux users, I must say, using a terminal on the phone doesn’t seem that crazy to me.
It doesn’t matter if they look ok (they still look out of place and feel wrong), the fact is they’re built with keyboards in mind. Hell even on phosh you’ll see keyboard shortcut indicators.
What stops anyone from making new GUIs, maybe even a new framework for doing that, optimised for touchscreens rather than keyboard and mouse?
Maybe I’m just unknowledgeable, but to me that idea doesn’t sound very far-fetched.
Because people keep defending the keyboard and mouse based mobile interfaces and as long as people and devs say its ok there will be no incentive to make proper mobile interfaces.
A single app can have separate interfaces for mobile and desktop. Mobile/Touch interfaces are uncommon right now because linux on mobile isn’t ready, and it is extra work to make a separate GUI.
We arent even close to developers considering implementing the frameworks to potentially start working on implementing that.
They’re actively trying to solve:
- e-waste and making devices last longer (contributing upstream)
- escaping data harvesting and surveillance
- offer an alternative to the mobile duopoly
I’m baffled that they even bother, given how much people complain about it not being good enough. But I’m glad they do, and I think it’s awesome.
Because they’ve yet to implement basic security features android had a decade ago and the interfaces are clunky, also once again who thought putting desktop apps on Mobile is a good idea?
They’re not a multi-billion dollar company. If you don’t like it, then don’t use it. That’s your choice.
But please stop talking nonsense about them not addressing real problems. Because they are. And they deserve credit for that. Not whining about the imperfections of a work in progress.
You dont have to be a multi billion dollar company to implement security features that exist in aosp, open source features based on freely available software that simply isnt implemented.
No, but it is going to take a considerable amount of time as they don’t have the manpower and resources of a multi billion dollar company.
GraphineOS didn’t start over from scratch for no reason nor did LineageOS so they dont need billions of dollars in funding, if you want to do everything youself then yeah its gonna cost that much.
the problem is that google is capable of slurping all of your data and your phone becomes an enhanced avenue for access; the linux phones are the solution to this.
i’m convinced that the “it just works” mantra is the reason why google or apple or microsoft is able to do this sort of asshattery and i can understand why people would want something that simply works.
however, the trade off for this mantra is that you’re giving yourself over to a corporation that not only doesn’ t have your best interest at heart but has proven will happily sell your control for a penny.
i can also understand why someone wouldn’t think that any of this matters and; if you’re lucky; it won’t matter all, but for the rest of us unlucky sob’s (and the people who don’t want to put their faith in luck), linux phones matter.
I use GraphineOS, it already does that but more secure and with apps
I also run GrapheneOS, but I’d love to have a decent true Linux alternative that wasn’t tied to Pixel phones. Maybe I can even get my headphone jack back.
A Linux phone doesn’t need to be, and definitely shouldn’t be, a scaled down desktop. There would obviously need to be some purpose built phone apps made, but I am pretty sure the existing Linux phones already do these, they aren’t really breaking new ground here. The whole point would be to have a workable modern phone that isn’t under Google or Apple’s greedy untrustworthy thumbs.
Have you acturally tried Postmarketos or any mobile Linux interface? I have and its just a scaled down Linux desktop.
What will it take to make a phone that comes with GrapheneOS directly? I have access to some good connections in China, what phone spec could we prototype to have a phone coming with GrapheneOS? I am ready to throw my savings at starting this business. Or should I reach out to GrapheneOS people directly? (Lineage works also)
GrapheneOs is currently discussing some stuff with OEMs but more help wouldn’t hurt I bet.
As per my 30min research, GrapheneOS depends heavily on pixel internals, but I will highjack one of the mastodon posts maybe somebody will spoonfeed me the definitive answer.
I live in a very low cost area, hopefully I will manage to get a nameless phone to run GrapheneOS or LineageOS at low cost, forward most of the income to the open source projects.
It might be too naive but I am giving it a shot.
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Write to your representatives.
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You can stop using Google and Apple… It’s that simple. But it seems that you, like many other, want their cake and eat it too…
Some countries allow the corpos to lock your device down when you delete it, and they have collaborated with the providers to disallow Open Source OS alternatives like Lineage. The only way I know of is to get a Pixel, which is still owned by Google, and then I think only one provider allows the after market OS to function on network. For those of us entering a dictatorship gov, it really sucks.
Well, then there’s a market for someone to crack…
If only there was someone that could afford as much lobbying as Google and Apple, we would have another parasite that was just as bad. Lets just get CB radios. Maybe morse code. God, what a shit show. This country is so fucked.
I believe it depends more on people-power, than on their wealth. That’s why they spend so much money on lobbying - it’s a testament to how scared they are.
I dont know if that indicates that theyre scared, its just part of the maintenance cost of their empires
You don’t spend money on something that you don’t get profit from. That’s just plain logic. They know, if they don’t keep spending money here, some politician would end their monopoly.
Of course. Im just saying i dont believe theyre scared because they know they will continue to have more than enough money for lobbying. Its probably very cheap in comparison to what they get out if it. Any business has necessary maintenance costs
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How it’s possible to stop using google or apple? By doing it…
You have accurately identified a major part of the problem. Many people are unwilling to change their habits, or don’t have the patience to learn new tools.
The other element though is time, many people don’t have the time to stop and learn. Especially when a problem like privacy is a lot less immediate than hunger or healthcare.
.
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So, do enlighten me, beside the fact that you are obviously addicted to the smartphone, how will your life be worse without privacy?
PS. Does anyone chase something for the sake of something else? That sounded a little silly…
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Real question is
Why can’t a rooted android fake play services?
Afaik this is possible, but the banking apps don’t like rooting either. No achievement there.
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idk, maybe the app wants to check if it runs on normal phone hardware, not some reverse engineering virtualization? Or something like: if the OS is verified and unrooted, no secrets get out?
Funny thing is I can use banking grapheneOS phone and the main Health insurance app, but not the Health Insurance TeleDoc-App. Personally I think apps that need GSM or at least be officially google boot verified are apps made by lazy morons, but that’s just a guess.
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Apps check if Google says this device is stock and original. Booting alternative OSes is allowed but frowned upon. And of course doesn’t get a Google approval signature. Something like that. Basically programmers not wanting to make the checking themselves and relying on Google to tell them what devices are “secure”.
Keep in mind GMS does not need to run as a system app. On GrapheneOS it does not.
At least for me only about 15% of my apps need GMS and I only run GMS in my private space which most of the time I lock.
So yes I do not like needing GMS but it is not so doom and gloom.
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Does what work? If you mean GMS sandboxing, that is ROM specific. Up to what the ROM supplier does.
Why would one need another ROM. GrapheneOS is one of the best. So is Google hardware in terms of lifetime cost, capability, and security. What other supplier gives 7 year support?
Generally with android it is best to choose the ROM and then the best hardware for it anyway. The best ROMs often have limited hardware support. There are not that many reasonable ROMs anyway. Nor are there many hardware choices that aupport most ROMs fully.
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Google phones are pretty widely available in many countries not just the US. But sure good point, there are many exceptions too.
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The big deal is how long a phone gets updates. If you divide Pixel a-series pricing by the 7 years of support, they are not that expensive.
What is expensive is buying a new phone everytime they go out of support. My old LG had maybe 1 year of updates when I got it years ago and it was a $250 phone. Still ran it for 6 years but most of that time had no updates which is not great.
My point is cost depends on how you measure it.
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I’m not sure what the point of the post is? Is it to share frustration? Searching for a solution? Sorry, I may be not good at inferring this, but I don’t get it.
IF you are in solution-finding mode, then there are a few things that you can do.
- You can use those banks that work without google. I’ve found 2 in the Netherlands, for example. One of them stopped working a while ago, I’ve wrote about that to their support and had to discontinue, withdrawing all my funds using a Dutch procedure for full withdrawal from a bank. After half a year or so I’ve noticed they’ve fixed it and work without google again. I’ve returned as well (it’s convenient for me to have 2 banks). I’m sure as hell banks watch for their usage statistics and wouldn’t like seeing people leave their bank if it can be fixed with a simple reversal of whatever the dev team did lately.
- You could try Linux phones such as PinePhone to see which use cases can it already cover. 30%? 70%? 90%? You’ll know what to even wait for in the Linux landscape to be able to switch. You’ll get a bit of power or mental control if you acquire this knowledge.
- Funnily, you can expect some good news coming from all those fights between US and China, because that makes a LOT of devices ship without google services. And some people in your county (I assume it’s not China, otherwise you wouldn’t have these problems) may have phones bought there, so you won’t be alone when pushing for such changes.
Can you elaborate which banks those were? Or you if there is a curated list of banks that work on custom ROMs?
Dutch banks working without google are: BUNQ and ASN Bank (EDIT: and Triodos).
BUNQ has the built-in QR scanning functionality broken (the one for iDEAL, if you’re living in NL you know), but that’s acceptable because it works to scan the QR in Binary Eye, which in turn opens the bunq app and the payment can be made easily.
ASN just works, all features that I’ve tried I think. (This one is only in Dutch though.)
Banks that I’ve tried few years ago and they didn’t work: ING, ABN AMRO, Rabonbank, Tridos, possibly few others that I forgot.
Also, lately I’ve started using some of those “international” ones, not so focused on NL. I’ve found that Wise (pure web, haven’t even tried their app) and Revolut (app) seem to work well on my de-googlified phone. Hope that helps!
EDIT: re-worded the first line of my message to be indexable by search engines, because that may be useful for future readers.
Thanks for the useful feedback.
Wise requires me to use the app as 2FA in order to log into their web interface. How do you log in without the app?
You can use andOTP if you want a FOSS app on Android. If you’re a hardcore no-Android-at-all user (or considering), you can use KeePassXC on the desktop. This kind of defeats the purpose of 2FA, but on the other hand people with KeePassXC tend to have strong passwords due to ease of their maintenance, so you don’t need 2FA as much to begin with.
TL&DR; use andOTP on Android or KeePassXC on Linux Desktop.
What puzzled me was that I had no option to input a TOTP. The website would only send me a notification through the Wise app to allow the login.
I have just discovered that the waiting screen on the website had a small, clickable text ‘Did not receive a notification?’ that leads to other options, including TOTP. That’s so much better!
Thank you, I would never have discovered this if you had not said that this was possible.
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