Shit, I’ve been right about microsoft for thirty-plus years and it doesn’t make a damned bit of difference.
They are. A. MONOPOLY. They have never “fought fair”, and it wouldn’t ever occur to them to do so. Their heart is all BOGU.
Wasn’t there even a Simpsons episode about it?
The “windows just works” claim is stupid. Especially the statement the author makes on how you just double click an icon and it just works everytime and if ever there is an issue, someone else will eventually fix it.
I don’t buy the argument that windows just works or that it’s somehow better or more stable. The reality is we all have grown to learn about computers specifically using windows and it’s been a steep learning curve. We have gotten familiar with its specificities and its sporadic misbehavior and accepted that as the norm. And people prefer what they are used to even if it’s suboptimal because they would rather not learn something else from scratch, even if in the long run it could be better.
Put any person who has zero computer experience in front of a windows computer or Linux computer and I doubt they would say the windows computer just works and the Linux one doesn’t.
Put any person who has zero computer experience in front of a windows computer or Linux computer and I doubt they would say the windows computer just works and the Linux one doesn’t.
In my experience, usually with Linux they have less problems and it’s easier to use. Until they need an application that only works on Windows.
I think this is an issue where you are talking about people coming from windows trying to do windows things on linux like run windows software. Of course you can in some cases run windows software on Linux but it is not a fair comparison to blame Linux for not being able to run windows software. Linux has it’s own suite of software and that is often better suited.
Put any person who has zero computer experience in front of a windows computer or Linux computer and I doubt they would say the windows computer just works and the Linux one doesn’t.
I did this experiment on my own kids. They find Linux more usable, and find it hard to believe people tolerate Windows.
There’s also some indoctrination involved.
But they have access to both, and they prefer Linux. I think that the “Windows is genuinely easier” argument doesn’t hold any water anymore.
Not so much the user experience, but I’m not aware of any software that doesn’t work with Microsoft, except for ones developed by Apple.
With the latest version of Windows, it’s not even a question as to whether a given piece of software will run.
Networking your home computers still does not work smoothly in Windows. It often stops for no good reason until you reboot everything.
Every single time I try out Linux it’s been a shitshow. Stuff doesn’t work, drive encryption requires multiple passwords to boot up. Updates that fail.
Windows just works. Only apple is more consistent.
I have never seen an encryption implementation that required two passwords to decrypt the disk.
Is it possible the first one decrypted the disk and the second password was for your user account?
Could be. I just remember being perturbed that there wasn’t an easy way to undo that situation.
Most desktop environments have an option for auto login under the user settings. That way you only need to decrypt the disk.
I still end up with other issues.
Right now I have one that attempted an update and ate the storage device. I later find out that the update command is deprecated and shouldn’t be used. Why is it still there then?
Another that installed a DE but the display is sideways and it’s not responding to the config.txt edits to rotate the display. In windows i didn’t need to look anything up, just right click and edit my display settings.
What distribution are you using? The common desktop environments (KDE & Gnome) have simple graphical display configurations similar to what you find in Windows.
Then i don’t know what you’re doing with your computer, but every time i use linux, all those things that are “awesome and just work on linux” somehow still have lots of annoying gotchas that waste too much of my time.
I’ve got some nice linux servers running that i’m really happy with. But once you go for the linux desktop, it’s just a world of pain compared to windows, no matter how you look at it. I’m more than experienced enough to get it running in the end, but claiming that linux “just works” is delusional…
Just the fact of how the ecosystem is fractured (which is also mentioned in the article here, with running a debian package on fedora), is already something that’ll make it too complicated for a lot of people to handle. And even the things “that just work”, just don’t. For example, i’ve got a steamdeck like device now, with bazzite (steamos like OS). Yes, it’s amazing at running windows games in linux. I heard so many people say how with proton “running windows games on linux just works”. If you stick to the ultra popular games, it for sure does. Go to a game that’s a bit older or lesser known, and no it isn’t. Make time to figure out settings to get it to run, tinker with controller mappings, and in the end, it might just still not work. And pretty much everything on linux feels that way, the initial impression is decent. If you stay on the safe path, it’ll work pretty well. Do something a bit less common: you’re on your own.
And that’s its commonly accepted for trolls to blame the user, and be like “it’s free, so accept it the way it is” when someone dares to ask questions or … even… (do i dare say it?)… complain… Doesn’t make for the most constructive environment…
Linux has achieved many great things, but the linux desktop sure has its use if you’re willing to spend your time on it, but acting as if it’s a better experience than the windows desktop is just delusional. There’s no other way to put it.
The comment about convenience trumping almost everything else reminded me of this old post (wasn’t originally on The Urban Dictionary but they have it now under the definition of Linux).
If Operating Systems Ran The Airlines
When you board the plane, you are given a seat, four bolts, a wrench and a copy of the seat-HOWTO.html. Once settled, the fully adjustable seat is very comfortable, the plane leaves and arrives on time without a single problem, the in-flight meal is wonderful. You try to tell customers of the other airlines about the great trip, but all they can say is, “You had to do what with the seat?”
That’s highlighting perfectly the real problem: too many people can’t assemble basic IKEA furniture properly even with clear, logical, fool-proof instructions.
It’s not given to everyone.
The irony here, I think, is that many people will have actually put together the chair they use to sit in front of their computer.
I think the point about convenience is more about familiarity than Windows being inherently easier. Speaking as someone who switched from Linux to Windows previously, I found the change very difficult as a lot of the FOSS software I was using didn’t have Windows versions. I had a nightmare trying to read one of my LUKS-encrypted drives on Windows. I was practically using WSL for everything. That’s not that Windows is inherently harder than Linux; it’s just that I was used to Linux and the FOSS ecosystem, just as some are used to Windows and their proprietary ecosystem.
If your hardware isn’t working properly, you have to find drivers that run on Linux; if the developer never made Linux-compatible drivers, you have to figure something else out.
Most drivers come pre-installed with the Linux kernel or your distro—I never had to manually install any drivers for my current hardware. Compared to Windows where you will have to go out of your way to install graphics drivers for NVIDIA or AMD depending on your graphics card, if you want to make the most out of your card’s capabilities.
Installers made for Windows don’t need any special TLC; you double-click them and they work.
See, I think if you’ve used Linux for any length of time you’d quickly find the system of package managers way easier than the system of having to hunt down an .exe on the internet, guess whether or not it’s a legit copy or if it’s malware, and manually manage updates for all the different software you have installed.
I agree that people stay on Windows out of convenience, but it’s not convenience as in Windows is inherently easier, but it’s convenience as in you’re used to the way things work on Windows. Because in my perspective, things do “just work” on Linux, and that’s because I’m used to the way things work here.
I’ve been on and off into linux for years, but finally decided to go full in on my main. Now using windows is HORRIBLY unintuitive. Its really gone downhill. Xp was peak.
Agreed on your last point. That’s when programs still had proper tool bars and keyboards shortcuts, before the “ribbon” shit started to fuck over everyone’s muscle memory.
It would have made sense for MS to start with “finger painting UI” and then work towards the power user UI - but the other way round makes zero sense to my poor brain.
This is the first computer where I built it with Linux in mind, and man is it a mostly seamless experience. While I also have a soft spot for XP, I would honestly say 7 was peak. Everything was more or less exactly what it said it was. I do IT, and man, is it frustrating trying to navigate both control Panel, and the settings app.
Sometimes when you click on an icon or a link in control panel, it brings you to settings, so you have to type it into the address bar to get where you want in control panel.
I did like 7 a lot too.
The new win 11 ui is utter shit. This is why I like linux, they aren’t going to completely change the damn settings application completely and even if they do, you can grab another distro that didn’t. Plus win11 randomly removing all your right click context menu options. What the actual fuck. First couple days on my shit work pc was me undoing everything win11 did.
The first time I updated some 50 programs by running a single update command, I wondered why it hasn’t been the standard since the start.
This, so much. Looking back, it’s just insane that pretty much every program you don’t regularly use will beg for updates on Windows. There are some bandaids like WinGet now that I appreciate, but it’s still nowhere as seamless as when the OS and the whole ecosystem around it are designed with a package manager in mind.
A huge chunk of the time I have to spend on tinkering is probably already saved by me not having to wait for updates.
As a recent linux convert I found printer drivers and setups to be a pain and getting java runtime working was a process but everything else was about a days worth and it just works. Hell, even hitting the windows key on the keyboard and typing the ms name for stuff pops up the relevant linux program. If you didn’t know you were looking at something different, it wouldn’t be obvious for the most part.
Just curious, what brand of printer do you have?
Brother. Weirdly, the scanner setup was completely painless and even easier than in wondows.
I did not even notice putting in a driver for my brother but I use it by usb. Is this more a wireless thing?
No, the generic usb driver wouldn’t work for me. I only was able to get it to print a test page weirdly.
I had a way different experience and its kinda funny as I use an lts distro that is even out of date for that. I have things that would not print properly in windows and it was easier to do it with linux.
Once I got it up and running, it has been like you described, way better than windows.
My old mother, who is completely disinterested in technology, has used a Linux desktop for a decade now without major issues.
If you aren’t a power user the differences between it and Windows are minor. You have windows, icons, menu bars, x closes the application, the box makes it big, right-click to open a menu, left-click to select, it’s all the same stuff. Besides, most of your time is spend in a browser anyway.
Yeah things break some times, but no more than in Windows. Being on a very default Ubuntu installation she can just search for her problems online and blindly run some random console command that probably fixes it, just like on Windows.
Hardware is easier because drivers are generally just magically there. Software is easier because it’s mostly in a repository which automatically installs dependencies and updates and doesn’t come with malware.
By far the biggest problem has been documents and executables that can only be opened in Windows. Mostly PDF forms (fuck you Adobe).
Yup. I started wirh Linux, and trying Windows was a bit of pain.
I had to run some mystery (included in installer) script to create local account (BypassNRO.cmd), then I remember having to change something in registry, but I don’t remember what that was, disable BITS and SysMain because they were slowing down the PC, disable automatic updates in Group Policy Editor because there’s no other way, get printer drivers from archive.org because despite HP saying it should automatically install, Windows said to get it from manufacturers website, and the Bluetooth would just randomly dissapear despite always working on Linux (Mint).
Well, and on Linux Mint I just had to install Nvidia driver and Realtek WiFi drivers in Driver Manager (GUI).
And of course, Arch was a bit harder to set up, but the Wiki is done well, so nothing too crazy. But I should probably revisit it, because honestly, I don’t remember how I set up my PC anymore. I went with encryption and boot separate from ESP, which differ from the default guide.
You have to install nvidia still whether you chose to do it manually or rpm. If you did none of this you’re staring at nou and if you never had more than one screen you probably didn’t even notice. And if you never ever had to do anything more complex than documents or watch movies( which you couldn’t do without installing some codecs) you’re probably untouched by it.
Additionally some (complex) software won’t run unless you also install something other than Wayland. This isn’t stuff you’d have to consider on windows. in fact sessions are not even a thing on windows you have to think about when it comes to software or graphics.
And then there’s permissions…
So just pointing out not all drivers have been installed. You do have to customize the build to needs which isn’t so much the case on windows.
That said : it’s not a big pain in the ass once you figure out installing is just like the same command over and over again and there’s no going and downloading from a website or clicking install or clicking through a wizard. ( other than the initial ‘y’)
Overall I found the Linux install process a giant relief over windows.
it’s just a bit to realize first time doing it and would prefer we be transparent about this and not over sell Linux as if it’s some sort of magic coconut oil. Be realistic : yes there’s some learning moments. No, it’s not that bad. Personally I thought it was worth it and less painful than what up I had to do with windows.
EG: I no longer have to keep a folder of ‘favourite software’ in case I had to reinstall windows/get a new computer
I just had to keep a backup list of ‘sudo dnf install’ commands and it just conveniently sits on the non boot drive that is accessible for copy pasting after a fresh install which is really quite nice.
Thank you for being rational here. It drives me bonkers how many people try to act like Linux is “just as easy” as windows. Like, yeah, to some degree it’s getting used to the differences, but there are definitely considerations and complexities that you simply don’t have to worry about with a windows machine.
As a relatively recent convert, I can say it was easier than I was expecting, but it was not “just as easy” as installing windows. It took more time to set up all the extra bits I needed/wanted, and I’m still not fully set up the way I’d like to be.
Same and I’m sure we will get there. Seems with the help tutorials online someone somewhere has found a trick for almost every consideration on Linux. Im 95% of the way there. Dunno where I’d be without those tutorials.
I’m still happy I took a plunge. It was a real plunge though. Lucky for me I’ve worked with Linux (only on the job) so it was likely easier for me to convert than someone who probably never has touched Linux. I cannot imagine the sheer terror of having to step back and learn on a whole brand new OS after being embedded in a different OS the entire time up until now.
There’s a phrase that gets passed around the tech scene: “Linux is only free if your time has no value.” Because, yes, Linux and other open-source apps are free to download and use. In a world driven by money, you’d expect the free version to overtake the paid one. The problem is, the paid option…just works.
Sure, until the paid option does something anti-competitive or gets too expensive or shuts down entirely, and you have to switch to a different paid option, sometimes burning dozens of hours in switching time (and/or hundreds of hours of work through lost or corrupted data) in the process. Not to mention the transition costs of just figuring out the new thing. Why not just switch to something that won’t go away, or be changed under your feet?
The problem is that it needs that initial time investment to get it working the way you want it.
Maybe I’m just enough of a tinkerer in any situation that I’ve put pretty much the same amount of time into fiddling with my Linux settings as I did with my last Windows computer.
If your hardware isn’t working properly, you have to find drivers that run on Linux; if the developer never made Linux-compatible drivers, you have to figure something else out.
People have been talking about this for my entire life, but in the past year of my switch to Linux, it has literally never happened once. I downloaded a new, open-source driver for my drawing tablet because it had some extra features that I wanted, but even it worked out of the box. I’ve never experienced this incompatibility. Honestly I’ve never even had trouble with software I wanted not being available for my distro.
Am I doing Linux wrong?
Windows doesn’t have this problem.
LOL.
Installers made for Windows don’t need any special TLC;
ROFL!
you double-click them and they work.
OH wait they’re serious?!
Once they’re installed, they work. If you need to install a driver, it works. You open a document in Office, it works.
Sure, if you don’t run into a permissions issue. And if the system registry doesn’t get corrupted. And if you’re not on an ARM machine. And if your TPM is the right version. And if you’re on the right subversion of Windows. And if a previous install didn’t leave some remnant of itself behind. And if you don’t want to do anything with an Apple device at all. And if sometimes you have the right fonts installed?
Honestly, I think I’ve had fewer problems installing Linux applications than Windows applications, but I can’t attest to that. I think I can be pretty confident in saying that they’re mostly equivalent. Both of them are pretty mature platforms with fairly minimal hiccups, in my experience.
And if something doesn’t work, we can yell at Microsoft until they publish a fix that makes it work again.
That’s a weird way of spelling “until they ignore it for six months and then lock the support thread for inactivity.”
Microsoft has gotten us into a state where we don’t need to think, tinker, or troubleshoot our software. We just double-click the icon and wait for it to “just work.” If it doesn’t, it’s someone else’s issue to solve, and we flood social media and support emails until the issue is resolved.
Here I have to agree with the article, because whatever the reality of installing applications on Windows, this is the fiction they’ve sold us. Apple, too. All operating systems have troubles, and all vendors try to downplay them and fix the stuff that causes problems for most of their users. Linux is just honest about the fact that they can’t make everything a perfectly smooth experience for everyone.
I work on a day to day basis with Microsoft products and services, including cloud environments, SQL databases, Azure lakes, etc.
I do it ALL from Linux, and if I have to I will remote into windows machines. I do it because I don’t have time for Windows nonsense. I need my machine to work, so I can work and get paid. Linux is easy to set up and has very few surprises. It just works.
Moved to LibreOffice. No regrets. Thank you, Microsoft!
does libre office do scripting? (like VBA?)
LibreOffice Basic, JavaScript, Python. But the macros wouldn’t necessarily be compatible with Excel.
I remember when Microsoft first attempted to prevent the standardisation of Open Document Format (used by LibreOffice and others) and then bullied its way into getting approval for own OOXML standard. Already back then, supporters of FOSS warned that Microsoft would use the overly complicated OOXML to maintain its stranglehold on users of Office-like software.:
Whenever applicable and possible, standards should build upon previous standardisation efforts and not depend on proprietary, vendor-specific technologies. Albeit, MS-OOXML neglects various standards and uses its own vendor-specific formats instead. This puts a substantial burden on all vendors to fully implement MS-OOXML. It seems questionable how any third party could ever implement them equally well, especially when a standard comes with 6000 pages of specifications without serving its minimalistic purpose.
Yeah, the issue is not “Microsoft’s usage of the XML format”. The issue is that they blatantly bought their format’s standardization, and then intentionally released an implementation that substantially deviated from the specs, making sure that MSO was the only “compatible” implementation.
I honestly don’t understand why I would ever write up or share a Microsoft document.
As for word, it’s just fucking rich text format. It’s obvious they’re manipulating the format to lock down users with less computer knowledge. Otherwise, why is it so fucking complicated?
Markdown accomplishes 90% of what a word doc does and it is legible with or without rendering.
EDIT: If I want data in or out of a spreadsheet program, I’m using CSV.
All of the “special features” of office docs wind up being security nightmares, unusable junk, or both.
I honestly don’t understand why I would ever write up or share a Microsoft document.
Corporate execs literally cum over MS’s next big thing. A lot of companies use MS-based infrastructure and applications.
My work just issued me a Surface 7 a few weeks ago (RIP my former Thinkpad T15 G2), and while it’s nice, the fucking copilot key is driving me absolutely insane. I can’t disable it unless I turn on “Fn Lock” which switches it’s function to open up the Context menu (i.e. right-click menu). HOWEVER, if I do that, then the F1-F12 keys’ volume, brightness, and home/end/pgup/pgdn functions are disabled. I’m convinced this was an intentional decision by MS.
The problem: our desire for convenience
Bring on the downvotes, but: When it comes to tools like computers, convenience is synonymous with productivity. People aren’t unreasonably demanding to have their hands held, they want to get stuff done. We need to stop acting like
convenienceproductivity is just one of many concerns. It is the primary concern.Freedom is nice but to most people it’s only important if it helps us do the things we want to do.
I find dealing with Micros~1 a giant pain in the ass. It’s always getting in the way of productivity with pointless rearranging of menus all the time, constantly trying to get me to use One Drive, shoving AI into every corner of everything.
I’m trying to make a spreadsheet to figure out and share budgets, instead I’m spending my time hunting for that menu that disappeared and figuring out how to disable copilot because I’m legally not allowed to share client data with third parties.
Micros~1
I see what you did there. 😆
This an incredibly tech-brained answer. “Sure, lots of OSS is difficult to install, breaks frequently, and lacks key features, but did you know Microsoft sometimes moves a menu item?”
I love OSS and I want it to succeed but “an item moved” isn’t in the same ballpark as the barriers to OSS adoption.
Lacks key features? Like collecting telemetry data? A subscription model? Not for me.
And talk about shit failing our IT department spends way more time fixing MS bullshit than maintaining Linux machines. We use Fedora at the office and that is extremely stable and very secure.
When IT has to fix a Linux machine it"s because of an actual hardware failure
Over 1 billion people use Microsoft products, but let’s all listen to @lefaucet@slrpnk.net 's anecdote about his IT dept. I genuinely believe your anecdote, but it’s irrelevant. And until OSS evangelists (of which I am one!) realize that other people exist and have different preferences and experiences, MS will keep winning.
Not relevant? Hah! Found the M$ bot I guess
This is probably the stupidest hill to die in I have ever seen. Of all the things to defend MS for you try to justify their destruction of the pull down menu!?
They broke 30+ years of standard GUI just to keep breaking and changing their stupid ass ribbon bar.
I don’t really care for Macs but god damn does their universal PDM system work great.
The amount of times I have had to click through and memorize their dumb as fuck ribbon bar just to have them change it again the next version is ridiculous.
I started the name calling by saying “tech brained” so I apologize and I’ll ease off on that.
With that said, I have to strongly disagree with you. I use MS Office, LibreOffice, and Google Docs regularly, and IMO the ribbon was a huge improvement for word processors and spreadsheets over traditional drop-down menus. Drop-Down menus have their place but for document editing they are not ideal.
You are going to die on that hill. You sir have some serious screws loose and I will never take anything you say seriously again.
Yes, exactly that! That convenience == productivity connection is exactly why I am a Linux Mint fan!
Convenience has value, so a lot of people will give their “free” information, attention, and control to commercial entities in exchange for it. Enshittification ensues and many of us are conditioned to beware of things that are simple to use because it REALLY just means you’ve been locked out of 95% of the options.
When a good FOSS project can bring convenience and productivity to more people around the world with NO strings attached, that is an incredibly good thing. It’s like, humanity actually working together just for the sake of the greater good, but doing it on the internet because governments can suck at it.
Damn, I need to find a good open source project to help out this winter when I’m forced to stop my oudoor “engineer turned farmer” hobbies for the season.
Edit: probably something Jellyfin related. Can’t believe I forgot to mention that!
In addition to that, with great respect to the hard working developers on LibreOffice, at least some of what seems like “unnecessary complexity” in Microsoft’s format is most likely just requirements LibreOffice isn’t solving or haven’t even encountered yet. You don’t get to Office’s size without having to deal with the most insane batshit crazy backcompat or compatibility issues.
They are intentionally obfuscating their file formats. It has nothing to do with complexity or “backwards compatibility” Microsoft has a LONG history of stuff like this.
That may be but without sources that say “let’s make the format more obscure” this is just opinion. Your opinion, OpenOffice opinion, IBM opinion etc.
Look for example at the 1904 dating system that Microsoft still has to support. Real customers still use this shit.
I’m not saying Microsoft has always exhibited good behaviour. But their crappy approach tends to be on the go to market side.
Office still has to support a leap year bug to allow banks to run their crappy Lotus based record keeping. Lotus for Darwin’s sake!! There is so much history in these files and what office has to do with them.
microsoft is a dirty bastard
The thing with “just works” in monopolies is that it eventually stops working. I already have terrible excel bugs all the time on my work computer. Left clicking a cell sometimes just selects half a dozen adjancent cells. You vlick something and all of a sudden the rendering just goes completely haywire… You have two larger tables open and it just crashes…
Things will only get worse from this, until the global economy will loose trillions to being stuck with Microsoft.
The thing with “just works” in monopolies is that it eventually stops working
This gets accelerated when the company starts changing the product just for the sake of having to change something to meet some OKR, or because they need to find a way to incorporate the newest marketing buzz (cloud, AI, etc).
The Office suite was simple to use and performant. Nowadays I watched a college professor struggle for 8 minutes trying to figure out how to save a file locally rather than saving it to OneDrive, because they redesigned everything around that. It also takes an obnoxiously long time to launch, it keeps popping up some Copilot button in inconvenient places too.
Anyone who thinks this is new, please read this, this and this.
And there’s also this. It’s a topic since shortly after the standardization of the Open Document Format 2006. MS then feared to lose whole governments as customers, so they (pseudo)standardized their own format, with a whole bunch of traps (in the format) and abuses of market power.
Also they already start shortening the live cycle of the non subscription office licenses, calling it „Modern-Lifecycle-Policy“. Up to now you hat 7-10 years of update support. But this year Office 2016 and 2019 phase out, next year already Office 2021! And Office 2024 only has support til 2029. Thats from today only 4 years (at the same price!)
Not sure why this author is spreading “paid software is convenient and just works” rhetoric. Simply isn’t the case. You just get addicted to trying to solve your problems with money.
Right?! That’s how this article ends?! “Sorry, but people are lazy, so, uh…Microsoft just wins I guess.”
