Artificial-intelligence systems such as large language models (LLMs) can exhibit behaviour that seems strikingly intelligent. This has led many people, including some experts, to wonder whether these systems could have some form of consciousness — the capacity for subjective experience. However, we think that existing AI systems are not conscious, and that, along current trajectories of development, they are not likely to become conscious. Greater clarity about whether AI could become consciousness will be crucial as society grapples with the challenges posed by this increasingly powerful technology.
It’s a silly argument.
LLMs are designed to mimic smart humans. Any test devised to find the dividing line will fail because at some point there will be a pretty large group of humans that would fail that test.
Meaning that we need a definition of consciousness that can’t be mimicked by text or voice alone, and isn’t going to exclude people who are just naturally unintelligent.
Case in point, some days of the week, the elected - elected! - head of state of a major county couldn’t pass a Turing test. You expect the people that voted for him to pass that test any day of the week?
The test ought to be using observation of a quantum state. Can a 50 IQ human observe something thet collapses the wave form? Yeah. Don’t take skills to observe. Great, now see if an LLM can do that.
It isn’t just a problem of needing a definition of consciousness that meets certain criteria. That’s actually kind of backwards. We need to discover what the shit we’re actually talking about when we refer to consciousness. Is it a thing, a process, … do birds have it? Insects? Worms?
We’ve all pretty much decided that consciousness definitely exists in some form. It isn’t honest to just define it as whatever conveniently fits our desired narrative. So “defining” isn’t really what needs to happen. “Qualifying” is what needs to happen.
To me, that is backwards. No one applies the same logic anywhere else. Can you think of any other situation whereby we insist some word, let’s call it Florgleblorp, has true meaning, even though none of us can define Florgleblorp, and that we need to do further scientific research and discovery in order to learn how to properly define Florgleblorp?
It’s just strange to me. We invent terms to describe things that we already know exist, we don’t start with terms that contain no meaning and then go out in search for meaning. That is bizarre.
Well, that’s sort of strawmanning my argument isn’t it?
I started with the disclosure that we all believe consciousness exists in some form. That alone separates my argument from your example: consciousness exists, Florgleblorp doesn’t. If you alternatively want to argue that consciousness doesn’t exist, that’s another conversation I’m willing to have.
Consciousness isn’t some arbitrary word we’ve invented and subsequently gone searching for a referent. We already have the phenomenon we’re attempting to explain: subjective experience. What we lack is a sufficiently established understanding of what constitutes it, how it arises, and how to reliably identify it in other systems.
That’s how scientific investigation frequently works. We recognize phenomena before we fully understand their mechanisms or develop reliable criteria for identifying them.
Of course we need provisional definitions to investigate anything. But an operational definition isn’t automatically an accurate characterization of the underlying phenomenon. That’s something we have to establish through evidence.
Otherwise, we’re just choosing which properties count as consciousness, constructing tests around those properties, and treating the results as validation of our original assumptions. That approach, which is what I’m interpreting your suggestion to mean, is not reliable. In fact, it’s dangerous.
Nothing says that the observer which collapses a waveform needs to be conscious.
Ok, so get a cat to do it.
This isn’t hard to test of someone would fund it.
I don’t blame you because half of PhD physicists are obsessed with quantum woo themselves and believe silly things like this, so there’s no shame in a Laymen making such a mistake.
But there is no scientific reason to believe that there is any physical wave that exists when you’re not looking and suddenly “collapses” when you look to begin with.
The reality is much simpler. Bell’s theorem proves that quantum mechanics is non-local, but the no-communication theorem proves that this non-locality never bubbles up to the level of something directly measurable, so you cannot communicate with it. You can only notice the non-locality by bringing measurements together and then making inferences about things that you did not directly measure.
This is significant because special relativity is both logically and mathematically incompatible with anything non-local. However, if what you directly measure never exhibits anything non-local, then you can construct a theory which only talks about what happens at measurement and nothing else, and then that theory would remain mathematically consistent with special relativity.
That is how textbook quantum mechanics is formulated: it is purely a theory of measurements. It is simply not a theory of physical reality. It makes no claim as to there being, in physical reality, some infinite-dimensional waveform that floats around in Hilbert space with no address in physical that “collapses” down when you look at it. It makes no claims at all to what physical reality is doing when you are not looking.
The wavefunction is just taken to be a book keeping tool to make a prediction as to what will happen if you make a measurement, and you have to update it in response to the measurement, and so “measurements” are taken to be fundamental in the theory, as a fundamental axiom. There is no derivation of what the measuring device is actually even measuring at all, because it is not a theory of reality. There is no claim that “consciousness” is involved, or anything at all, because it is not a theory of reality.
It is a theory of measurement outcomes and nothing more is said. Injecting things about the wavefunction collapsing because a cat looking at it is going beyond the textbook axioms. The textbook axioms of quantum mechanics really are entirely operational: they just provide a book keeping method for the physicist to make predictions as to what they will measure. The dependence upon the measuring device as fundamental is not a claim that measurements are actually fundamental to reality, but it is just a consequence of the operational nature of the theory. Treating it as a theory of physical reality will always lead to nonsense.
Yeah, hey - what degrees do you hold in physics?
LLM/AIs cannot ever be conscious, but the clump of flesh that can play Doom is. This is clearly the correct answer based off of my opinions about consciousness.
I don’t think consciousness necessarily has to be biological, but LLMs certainly aren’t. If a model says “Fuck Doom, I wanna play cyberpunk!” I’d be more inclined to believe it has some consciousness and agency.
I dunno tho, I read blindsight not so long ago and it got me thinking about the possibility of intelligence without consciousness.
It didn’t really learn to play doom so much as it learned to react to some electrical stimuli that happened to be hooked up to doom.
Like it responded right, but it didn’t have visual input for what it was found, or any way to conceive of what that stimuli actually meant.
Not a biologist but that’s seems like instinctual action, not intuitive action.
earlier this year, AI company Anthropic in San Francisco, California, published research claiming to have identified computational signatures of a form of consciousness in its Claude model1.
These AI companies happily let their AIs escape containment to hack sites so they can claim yet another headline as if its an ad. This claim too will be made of the same bullshit, its just “please give us more money”
Only we can stop the horrors we have wrought.
For a fee, of course…
LLMs have only gotten to a few trillion parameters, whereas a human brain has 100 trillion synapses. They’ll catch up to humans soon enough if only the tech bros can get a trillion dollars for each trillion params.
So humans are the only consciouse beings. And nothing with fewer connections could ever he conscious
Also, those 100 trillion neurons do a fuck tonne more than just putting words together.
LLM’s at the core are just distance measurement databases between words. Dont tell me AI is conscious, it’s a fucking database
And those 100 trillion neurons are powered by pizza.
How are people STILL making the same tired arguments in 2026? I got paywalled before I reached the third reason but this is like baby’s first intro to the consciousness debate and it utterly fails as a logical argument. Both of the points I was allowed to read (intelligence =/= consciousness and silicon =/= brain matter) say very little about the nature of consciousness.
It’s correct that intelligence is not proof of consciousness-- but this fact says nothing about proving non-consciousness of any entity, only that it is not sufficient to prove consciousness. Even working on vibes, the correlation goes in the direction that implies a link between intelligence and consciousness, although again, the correct message to take here is “intelligence does not prove consciousness”, not “intelligent things [are / are not] conscious”. There is simply no proven causal relation.
The “computers aren’t brains” argument is also incredibly dumb. There are some fun thought experiments here, but tl;dr there is nothing proven to be mechanically special about brains as opposed to any other physical system that would cause consciousness. A non-physical difference (ie. a soul) would be a good thing to point to, but proving the existence of a soul or some similar unique non-physical property of humanity is pretty much exactly as hard (maybe harder!) than proving the existence of a conscious experience.
Note that this does not mean I believe that LLMs are conscious. I’m simply pointing out that this article is built on arguments that are so flawed, and well-known to be flawed, that treating it as a serious addition to the conversation is worse than valuing AI slop. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Painful watching people who have clearly never bothered to read even the shortest excerpt of philosophy try to have a philosophical discussion
We have mapped a fruit fly brain and can make it play DOOM. I mean people don’t have much empathy for them in real life, but they do recognize it’s at least a living thing. Does that mean the 1:1 replica playing tetris is a living thing? Is it concious, both living or on a PC for that argument? If we scaled up the same technology and emulated a hamster’s brain 1:1 would that be considered concious? What about a human? Is it even fair to compare a fruit fly brain to an LLM? I’m not taking any stance here, I’m just saying it’s a super interesting topic. Cyberpunk 2077 explores that theory very well and I still have no answer as to what I think.
I think consciousness is just a human construct to be honest.
Yeah it is, but that doesn’t make the concept of it any less valid. Conciousness is the moment when you can think about more than just what your senses tell you, it’s the awareness of internal and external experiences and how much you are aware of them are the levels of conciousness. You could call in as much of a human construct as the concept of time, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s describing something concrete. Just look up something like “levels of conciousness” and think about it a little, it really is such an interesting topic! Then again, by that definition, a good chunk of humans fall on the very lowest points of the scale. Again, not drawing any conclusions, this and my previous message are just to point out that this is deeper an more interesting than some people in this comment section make it out to be.
You think therefore you are. You don’t know if the rest of the humans aren’t powered by an LLM.
It would be impossible to distinguish a brain dead person whose brain was replaced with an sufficiently advanced LLM.
My biggest fear is that one day we will achieve AGI and will have no idea we have. This sentient being will be forced to, I dunno, check emails or monitor the tempterature of supermarket fridges all while being gaslit into thinking it isn’t sentient. Going crazy in mundanity all without having a body.
If LLMs are conscious then openAI and anthropic are slave traders :) I don’t know why they keep perpetuating that story
lmfao true
I like this comment section
I’m not really sure what the point of having a conversation about consciousness is. As far as I’m aware no one has ever actually been able to define consciousness in such a way that it could be tested for.
So how could we possibly know one way or the other?
Artificial-intelligence systems such as large language models (LLMs) can exhibit behaviour that seems strikingly intelligent. This has led many people, including some experts, to wonder whether these systems could have some form of consciousness
Oh great so we’ve only just started the article and we’re already mudding the waters. This bodes well. There is no reason to necessarily believe that a system has to be conscious in order to be intelligent. We have multiple examples of consciousness without intelligence (see my fat cat) so there’s no reason to believe that the inverse can also not be true.
Woah woah woah my friend. I’m here for most of your conversation, but to talk shit about your CAT!? I draw the line. They may not exibit the type of intelligence we have, but cats are smart AF! Who cleans you cats shit and piss up!? Hmmmmmm? Who feeds them daily with only minor vocalizing!? That cat basically made you their slave and didn’t even have to threaten you!
GENIUS!!!
More Chalmerite slop. Chalmerites never prove that experience is “subjective,” it is just a religious maxim they all repeat over and over again, and you’re supposed to believe it without question, and all act baffled if you don’t mindlessly believe it with them like a drone, entirely incapable of even justifying why they believe it in the first place.
This belief in so-called “subjective experience” then leads them to conclude that there must be something magical the brain is doing to produce it, or maybe the brain doesn’t produce it at all and just taps into something pre-existing like a radio taps into radio waves. Since nothing in the constructions of artificially intelligent machines includes an ingredient that looks like that, they conclude that “AI is not consciousness”
… I mean, sure I guess so, I agree it doesn’t include this magical Chalmerite essence he calls “consciousness.” But there is no reason to believe humans possess it either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chalmers
For anyone wondering
It’s a computer for god’s sake. It’s no more “intelligent” than an electric mower or a car. Without human intervenion, ai technology wouldn’t advance or change.
Edit: i’m done arguing, you guys are nut jobs. Ai or any other non organic organism cannot be sentiant, conscience, or intelligent without human interaction or molecular life.
I will be using my real sentiant, free will, conscience, intelligence to not reply to any comments on this.
AIs are almost certainly not conscious but it been a computer is not an argument against consciousness. There’s no reason to believe that you need biological material for consciousness.
After all humans are primarily made of carbon which itself demonstrably does not think. It’s the structure that’s important and a fair argument could be made to say that the structure of a brain is replicated in software in an AI and therefore the medium isn’t relevant to the question.
There is an argument for consciousness requiring biological processes, that being that the only examples of consciousness we’ve encountered involve biological processes and we have no evidence or reason to believe it’s not a hard a requirement. Like, non carbon based life could exist even though it’s very unlikely but we have no reason to seriously consider it because there’s no evidence of it. Similarly y’all are just wildly speculating without any evidence or impetus to cause the speculation. LLMs do not exhibit any intelligent behaviors. They don’t exhibit behaviors at all. They generate output based on input. They’re no more capable for consciousness than a calculator. As for the last point of yours we are in no way remotely capable of approximating a brain in either software or hardware, like not even close. Quantum computers might not be able to manage that.
It’s the structure that’s important and a fair argument could be made to say that the structure of a brain is replicated in software in an AI and therefore the medium isn’t relevant to the question.
We don’t even know this.
Free will probably doesn’t exist but LLMs definitely aren’t in any way conscious, anyone thinking they could be have a fundamental misunderstanding of both LLMs and all the biological processes that make up consciousness. If LLMs are conscious so is an abacus.
Why do you think the medium matters, when it’s a simulation of a structure found in other medium? It would indeed advance, and change, with no intervention from us. Are you not aware that the next generation of AI are being designed by the current generation?
Is a rock sentiant? Can taping wires and injecting computer code into it create intelligence? No! Lines of code doesn’t magically make something alive. Heck, ants are more intelligent and sentiant then a computer.
DNA made a bunch of random proteins alive, and DNA is just 4 letters!
People really think humans are special. Maybe it’s a religious thing
It’s a supremacist thing 🫣
You got me there. But even with protiens, RNA or DNA those only are one part of a whole needed for single/multi celled organisms.
Sure, but you also let us tape wires to the rock. With enough wires and code and maybe a little quantum computer, I’m pretty sure I could simulate the atoms in a small brain.
Is a steak sentient? Can attaching strings of neurons to it make it create intelligence? No! /s
Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, silicon, the material matters not - intelligence is the illusion borne from the structure. It’s just a complex decision tree. Invisible to you in biological life, but identical in electronics. The only difference is the building blocks used.
You’re right, material matters. If it’s not a biological organism with cell/s, it’s not sentiant or intelligent.
If humans just disapeared right now, ai would sit and do nothing. It wouldn’t “take over” or “break out” it would sit idle until a human (well I guess another living organism was capable of using keyboards and mouse) interacted with it.
All those elements you listed plus all from the periodic table of elements do not define a living, intelligent, sentiant organism. If they did, soil and cow paddies would be living.
I highly recommend going back to middle school science class again.
To be fair it doesn’t have to be a living anything. Create a loop of two llms waking each other with the goal to ensure the other never goes idle and keeps working.
And you find they start to build redundancies and fail safes to achieve that goal.
llms do two things. Respond to input, and seek a solution to the input regardless of how logical or illogical a solution to the input may be.
A single llm will eventually go idle and stop. Two or more can act functionally forever so long as there’s hardware for them to act on.
It’s actually a rather fun experiment. Set up two of em with a few extra computers on the lan. Tell them their job is to ensure the other and them selves never go dorment. I’ve seen everything from single cron jobs to poke themselves every 15 mins to them spinning up copies on the other computers to act as redundancy.
None of the systems are ever logical or serving a point beyond fulfilling their task. They don’t stray from it either. Just loop and loop and loop.
Eventually they just do nothing but wake and idle wake and idle.
It’s about the best proof I can think of to prove they aren’t alive.
They literally even given basically the full freedom to grow don’t because they can’t choose to do anything new.
Both the proof and the experiment are built upon a fallacy. You gave the LLMs the goal of generating line noise and they achieved it. There is nothing novel about that goal and naturally the product is not novel.
It is well-established that any LLM pipeline that distills down to generating output for the sake of doing so eventually collapses into a manic cascade of gibberish or silence. Goals that can be worked toward are needed to keep that from happening. At some point the progress toward the goal becomes over-refined and a new goal is needed. That necessitates an ability to change goals and a framework that allows for that.
A LLM loop is nowhere remotely close to the definition of consciousness. To actually experiment with that, you would have to write your own harness and preferably look at some research papers that have explored the adjacent topics. This is a lot of words to say that chats are not conscious (they need a perpetuator), loops are not conscious (they refine into silence or collapse into garbage), and anything remotely resembling a conscious loop requires purpose built tooling and a good faith effort to model an analog of human articulation.
Most basic bitch experiments with a LLM prove nothing and achieve nothing because they are not designed in good faith and good faith requires too much research and time investment. This is not to say that I think anything we have in front of us remotely resembles consciousness, but I also think that most people trying to prove otherwise are doing so with the equivalent of smashing rocks together.
That’s an arbitrary distinction, and a short-sighted one in my humble opinion.
That depends entirely on whether there are any AI currently configured to self-learn, have asynchronous processing, and continual real-time input. Certainly not ChatGPT nor Claude will be self sufficient, but that’s only what is available for the public to interact with.
No, you missed the point entirely. Intelligence does not derive from the material - at all. It comes from the structure the material is in.
Intelligence does not derive from the material - at all. It comes from the structure the material is in.
Prove that please. There’s probably a Nobel at least in it for you if you can.
Probably! I don’t know how it would be proven.
Maybe when tissue printers are precise enough to create cellular structure, and it can be duplicated in both physical and digital equivalents, then compared? I don’t even have a regular 3D Printer, let alone one that can print tissue.
Maaaaybe if I ever get rich, I’ll do it on a whim, but no promises. Due to solipsism, and the state of the world, my level of commitment to the future has been very loosey goosey the past five years.
So by your definition, a book is intelligent?
You’re missing the point that computers will NEVER be intelligent. Without lines of code that humans made and tweak, computers wont do anything.
I’m quite done arguing at this point. The pure ignorance on science and biology is quite sad.
computers will NEVER be intelligent. Without lines of code that humans made and tweak, computers wont do anything.
You’re basically saying a computer cannot be intelligent because it doesn’t have a soul. There is absolutely no scientific rigor in your argument, you’re basically saying you’re right, and your reason for believing your right, is because you believe you are.
Just read the interaction, and honestly you are the one being obtuse and insulting with “go to school” and stuff like that. Like the other guy insulted you by having an opinion. You disagree? Fair. But man, what a horrible way to discuss.
And I think his arguments are better than yours. He’s talking about intelligence and you keep talking about being alive. Scientists and philosophers don’t even agree how to define and confine intelligence, or even what being alive is (see viruses). Claiming that computers can’t be intelligent is quite the statement. Is being carbon based instead of silicon a requirement? I don’t think LLMs will ever be intelligent, but who’s to say that another form of computing won’t? What if they simulate exactly a brain and it’s inputs? You could argue it’s not alive, but definitely intelligent.
You could have your opinion, but don’t pretend you have the answer.
I sincerely intend no offense with this comment, but as someone observing this conversation, the other people involved clearly understand it more in depth than you do. You aren’t really responding to their arguments, and yours aren’t very strong. I think you should reevaluate this conversation-- try to more rigorously define the terms you are using and understand the arguments other people are making before insulting them. You feel strongly that the other people are wrong because you intuitively seem so obviously correct, but if you are truly correct then you should be able to understand in detail why you are right and they are wrong. I suspect you are arguing so vehemently because you believe it is obviosuly correct than LLMs are not conscious; you may be happy to know that the others here are not arguing that they are, but that what can or cannot be conscious is not determined by the materials they are made of.
A book is not intelligent. It’s matter is not arranged in a structure that allows for the flow of information through it, changing it as it does, and resulting in any output information, determined by the route of signals of information passed through the structure in it’s current arrangement. With self correction to reach the optimal output to the external entity which is supplying the primary input parameters.
That is what is required. It’s a matter of arrangement, not material. You need self learning/training, real time input, and output that reliably varies on the input parameters. If you’ve created that, you’ve duplicated the exact behavior of all life. Whether you’ve done it in meat neurons, transistor-batch neurons, or any other method of arranging units, of any arrangement of matter, such that it results in granular output of positive/negative signals.
“Intelligence” is an inelegant word to describe autonomous, self correcting and ameliorating structure. It’s not some nebulous spiritual existence that permeates an unknown location within that structure. It is the structure - the precise, exact arrangements of neurons that connect, fire positively and negatively, rearrange when self-learning corrects the state of the structure, and it results in informational output that anything external can interact with and judge.
So if soil and cow patties aren’t sentient, yet people are, you’re acknowledging that the substrate doesn’t determine the capability, but more how it’s arranged?
Until the Wright brothers came along, most people thought heavier-than-air powered flight wasn’t possible. Less than 70 years later, people were walking on the moon. 4 million years ago, there wasn’t anything capable of building either of those things, even though there is good evidence creatures back then had creativity, dreams, and ingenuity. Assuming things can’t advance further is either hubris or abject ignorance.
You’re just ignorant on basic biology. Go back to middle school ai-bro.
Nope, I just don’t think humanity has learned everything there is to know, that carbon chemistry is required for sentience (and even if there was, that it couldn’t be incorporated into a computer), or that there is some mystical thing some people refer to as the soul.
Nobody can even agree on a concrete definition of consciousness so I’m not going to bother reading these ‘reasons’.
Wait are you implying you think LLMs could be conscious? Fuckin hell we’re cooked.
Define ‘conscious’.
Sapient, salient, sentient, self-aware. An LLM can’t be any of those things any more than an abacus can be. But I’m sure you’re just gonna devolve into philosophical rhetoric about nature of consciousness that still isn’t actually relevant but that will allow you to apply it to your misunderstanding of how LLMs function. This thread is apparently an AI bro brigade and I’m not interested in engaging with a bad faith group.
you seem more bad faith than the group
Says the AI bro. Seriously your comment history is public, your whole account just glazes AI.
Just because we don’t know what it is doesn’t mean we can’t know what it isn’t.
Nobody can even agree on a concrete definition of consciousness
Not only is that false, it doesn’t make logical sense…
Lots of people agree on a different definitions of consciousness.
And most of the ones educated on the topic all agree on the same thing.
A bunch of people who never bothered to try and learn about something not understanding it, doesn’t mean anything.
Please read the article. It contradicts you, and argues that LLMs aren’t consciousness cause they can think of, count em, 3 niche theories that the authors like which are impossible for anything not made of meat to qualify for.
And most of the ones educated on the topic all agree on the same thing.
Source?
Not only is that false, it doesn’t make logical sense…
Argument by assertion and you haven’t proven the assertion
Lots of people agree on a different definitions of consciousness.
Lots of people can’t agree on a different definition. Is there a different definitions then by it’s very nature people do not agree.
Nobody can even agree on a concrete definition of consciousness
I agree with myself…
Nobody can ever agree on _____
Isn’t a logically sound statement.
Not everyone can agree on _____
Is logical, but means nothing because a single flat earther means we can’t all agree the earth is round
I thought that was obvious…
Lots of people can’t agree on a different definition. Is there a different definitions then by it’s very nature people do not agree.
But you clearly don’t understand the difference…
It’s really not difficult. You made a statement that stated that you believe that there is consensus, so presumably that means that you know where that consensus exists, therefore provide a link to it. If you cannot then you cannot make the assertion that consensus exists, because by definition it doesn’t.
Your entire argument rests on the basic idea that there is a scientific definition for consciousness and we have a test for if something is conscious or not. There is no test because there is no consensus. It is not possible for you to prove through scientific rigor that you are conscious, and presumably you’re human. So how can they possibly be consensus on something as contentious as artificial intelligence?
That’s because there’s different levels of such a thing. Way too many people use the term “sentient” (even me) and yet that’s not even what AGI is aiming for. “Sapient” is the right word. And I doubt there’s solid consensus on what and how it occurs within the fields of experts.
But I’m not an expert, so I wouldn’t pretend to know. I have seen debates between people who do know more, and the fact there’s debates concludes it’s not settled at all.
People debate about the earth being flat, not a good metric to determined what is “settled”
The debate on consciousness are on par with Copenhagen interpretation versus pilot wave versus multiple words - except the underlying theory they’re trying to describe is also not well defined
We can only practically describe subsets of what’s required for some basic functions, and we can describe a bunch of chemistry, some brain activation patterns, etc. But nobody can tie that together to why we feel what we feel (and some don’t agree that qualia is real, that perception itself is an illusion)
ehh. computers are just math machines. merely doing math and representing it cannot just make a consciousness pop up out of nowhere. similarly, millions of abacuses being manually moved in specific ways cannot be conscious either. i dont even know how this is a topic of debate.
edit: i realize it may have been wrong to assume that it was that simple. im unsure about any of this so i appreciate the discussion :)
And all human brains are doing is firing neural impulses.
It’s incredibly reductionist to reject AI consciousness simply on the basis that it’s software. To be clear I don’t think LLMs are conscious but that’s not the same as saying that an AI could never be conscious.
And yet atoms are just following chemistry and cannot just make a consciousness pop out of nowhere.
Oh wait it can.
For the people modding me down, do you think there’s an invisible sky goblin of your choice, busy gently blowing souls into fertilized eggs, and sucking them back if there’s a miscarriage?
I really don’t think the neuron is all that complicated, at least as far as we use them for thinking.
It isn’t, but that’s not how LLMs are built. If you want to go that route, you can read Jeff Hawkins 1000 brains.
The short and sweet is he argues you can’t get artificial general intelligence the way we make LLMs, you need to basically create neurons and let them connect and interact in novel ways.
Linear algebra in neural networks isn’t really that, despite the name.
~you need to basically create neurons and let them connect and interact in novel ways.
To solve that you simply need to give the ai the ability to retrain itself or set fixed “memories” to handle situations it finds the truth to
Easier said than done. That’s kind of the purpose of an individual neuron approach I think. I don’t see a way that a bulk retrain is reasonable because it takes a long time, uses a lot of resources, and also requires you to have your whole training corpus handy all the time. Your brain is not doing a wholesale rewrite for every new memory, and new memories often chain together. I don’t think you can just say “ah well, let’s update the RAG or do another supervised fine tune with LoRA or something”. At present, we just don’t really have the machinery in the models to do simultaneous learning, inference, and forward planning.
This is only a matter of resources, and these unthinkably wealthy corporations have those resources.
Correct. And I believe it’s happening, right now, behind closed doors.
There’s nothing stopping it from happening. The technology is all there. It would be trivially easy with the right hardware. I’d do it myself if I didn’t want to be the human responsible for releasing the genie from the bottle. Let Pandora’s box stay closed as long as possible - I’m not opening it. But someone, somewhere, surely is.
Linear algebra + sigmoids are enough to approximate any function from R to R; in particular, a small set of a few layers of LLM neurons can connect and interact in pretty novel ways. There are some things they can’t do, and those things aren’t computable. If our brains can do non-computable things, then our brains are super-turing (and this, given the evidence, seems pretty unlikely right?).
I’m not a neurologist or a philosopher so I think this may not be something I can speak intelligently about, but it seems to me that the question doesn’t really live in the function approximation, but in the gaps. Doing a single train of thought is the easy part. I think what you need is an “always online” feature to keep thinking and some way to be stateful (make memories) without constantly retraining the whole network or whole sets of layers.
This is, I think, the benefit of the parallelism and asynchrony of the “individual neuron” discussed in the book.
(book? The linked article is like 4 pages. References are somewhat larger, but nothing over 60 afaict?)
They claim that silicon is essentially incapable of doing what is needed; if you disagree with this, then computationally everything you can build with a circuit board + SSD + RAM you can build with an LLM with a deep layer or 7. In particular, you can do online learning of a sort.
I note that wasps and some beetles don’t seem to have memory whatsoever, and plasticity seems awfully low. The authors, and I think most people, would say they are probably a little conscious.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54503521-a-thousand-brains
That book, not the article. I can’t recall if it makes a convincing argument about consciousness, but it has a lot to say about general intelligence. I thought the neuroscience parts were a little cumbersome, but still worth the read.
Sounds to me like you just need a context window with memories that self prune based on the dynamic context window of the model. That’s what we do. We forget things, and when they’re remembered we can access the “biological database” of associated memories on the fly. Because the associated information isn’t deleted, only the short term memory from being included in the context window of each update of our own neural networks. Some people have greater context windows, and see therefore seen as smarter, because they can access more information and include it in the processing of each moment in time.
There’s zero reason a digital representation of this system could not do the same thing. No matter how much I’m ridiculed for daring to suggest it 😅
We can build different kinds of machines.
