I’ve said it on this platform before: I will build furniture in inches until my hands can’t hold a chisel anymore. The inch system arose around the needs of carpentry and woodworking, it works in base 12, which is outright superior to base 10, especially when you divide by 3 and 4 more often than by 5.
Also, the closest tape measure I have to hand is my 5m metric tape. I build things in metric, just…not furniture.
I’m a carpenter as well, and I hear what you’re saying, but also my coworkers and I were just talking yesterday about how much better metric is 😅 Every base-12 advantage is weakened by the fact that I’m constantly expected to do fractions. Everything in metric is a whole number and it’s so hot. Love it when I get an actual number to build something to, instead of a math problem.
If you’ve ever ordered lumber from a Canadian company, you know how much easier it is to calculate and order in metric units vs. board-feet. I feel bad for their sales reps who have to deal with us Yankeestanis.
Also, all the really nice chisels and hand tools from Japan and Europe are already in metric.
Wow, base 12, I never thought of thas! You halve it, quarter it, and third it, and still end up with clean integers.
Yeah; you’ll often find boards in America milled to 3/4" or 1 1/2". Those are 1/16th or 1/8th of a foot. A lot of boards used in furniture are 3/4" thick. Half of 3/4 is 3/8, a third of 3/4 is 1/4. It solves the problems we need to solve, and the metric woodworkers start sounding how teaspoon/cup/quart cooks do.
A dozenal metric system would work as well as the decimal metric system, as long as everything else was base-12:
in base 12 in base 10 1m’m = 10⁻³m = 0.001m 1m’m = 12⁻³m = 1/1728m 1c’m = 10⁻²m = 0.01m 1c’m = 12⁻²m = 1/144m 1m = 1m 1m = 1m 1k’m = 10³m = 1000m 1k’m = 12³m = 1728m Since we’re at this might as well say the day has 10₁₂k’s = 20736₁₀s. Each k’s is exactly two of our current hours, and each “new second” is roughly
twofour of our current seconds. Enough of this Sumerian mixed base already!What do you do when a piece you’re cutting isnt exactly a foot, say, 11 or 13 inches? I know nothing about woodworking, but I’m assuming there isnt a unified standard to make everything match to the nearest whole foot, so then this whole base 12 thing goes out the window, or am I missing something here?
Basically there is a conflict going on amongst the woodworkers of the world between those who think clearer in decimals, and those who think clearer in fractions. The fraction folks will tend to prefer standard units, the decimal thinkers will tend to prefer metric.
What’s interesting to me is: you only ever hear Americans complaining about metric, but you never hear woodworkers from Europe or Japan talk about the advantages of standard units… while the Europeans and Japanese are also pumping out generally much higher-quality woodworking than most folks in the USA are. You can probably tell which I prefer lol
My take is, if the standard units were really that much better, I think Japanese and French folks would be using them, because their cultures care a looot more about fine woodworking than the USA’s culture does.
Japan had their own system quite similar to inches that was so popular Japan had to ban the sale or transfer of the rulers.
You look at your tape measure, at the number 11 or 13 as appropriate, put a mark there, then take it to the saw and cut it.
I meant, for cutting in thirds and quarters. An exact foot you can cut at 3 and 4 inches, but if a board is 13 inches, divide that by 3 and you have to cut at… 4.3333333 inches?
Same thing you do for cutting 13cm into thirds: make one third a bit fat. Go 4 1/4, 4 1/4 and 4 1/2". Or construct it.
That’s not a problem I face in the wood shop a lot though. A more practical problem: We tend to mill boards to 3/4" in thickness. To do a half-lap joint, you need to cut away half the thickness of each board and then lap them over each other, you can set your depth to 3/8" and you’re there. If I’m going to do a bridle joint or a mortise and tenon, a third of 3/4" is 1/4". Show me a third of 19mm on a metric ruler. I’ll show you where it is: 6, 6, and 7mm.
I’ve setup a software that generate quotes, sales invoice and production order for a windows and door company. The sales person enter the dimensions and option of the window and it automatically calculate the price, the exact amount material, deduct it from the inventory and generate the cutting and assembly instruction.
They were all working with fractional inches. I’ve started setting up the system using inches and it was a NIGHTMARE ! I quickly decided to convert everything on metric in the back end and to do all the calculations on that and I reconvert it in inches at the end.
Now most of the workers are using metric because it just make more sense.
Do americans actually do math with imperial system at school? That must be a nightmare and have conversion errors between units.
This is a common misconception. Americans can’t do math and don’t learn anything at school
and don’t learn anything at school
That’s not true! They learn how to hide under desks
You didn’t learn active shooter drills? How did you avoid getting shot?
Kinda… The classes “teach” imperial but guns/bullets are metric
So the most American things in America are using the least American measurement system?
some of the popular ones are measured in metric, but there’s plenty that are not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber#Metric_and_US_customary
It’s a pretty heavy mix, many of the most popular rounds are also referenced by their metric size but they’re not usually ‘useful’ sizes in either standard or metric.
For example:
- .22 LR = .223in = 5.56 NATO
- 9mm = .357 mag
- .40 S&W = 10mm Auto
- .308 = 7.62mm
- .44 = no common metric eq.
- .45 = no common metric eq.
- .50 = 12.7mm
There’s almost never a need to involve units outside of science which typically is metric anyway. Also most of these units aren’t really ever converted between, no one gives a measurement as 1 mile 300 yards 2 feet 6 inches.
no one gives a measurement as 1 mile 300 yards 2 feet 6 inches.
When this topic came up yet another time previously, USian engineers proudly chimed in saying that their software accepts any kinds of units and converts between them as needed, so they put in US units without bothering about whether metric units are used elsewhere in the project. Ergo, someone does in fact give measurements like in your example.
I have very occasionally seen measurements given in
yd + inoryd. + dec ft. I have never once seen measurements given in any ofyd + ft + in,mi + yd,mi + yd + ftand definitely never inmi + yd + ft + in. That would be like giving a measurement inkm + dm + cm + mm, there’s just no reason to do it. Any cad software I’ve ever used is capable of handling mixed units because it’s trivial to implement, but I would be willing to bet it’s one of the most underutilized features.
Huh?
one thing i enjoy way more than i should is use units that are technically correct, but no one uses them like ever.
like megagrams instead of metric tonnes.
or 1 dekameter instead of 10 meters.
I only use metric when it’s in forms nobody else uses or recognizes at a glance because I need to be difficult. Decimeter is perfect for like, height of a person, for example. Why do they use CM?
Why do they use CM?
Precision. “17dm” can be anything between 16.5dm or 17.5dm.
You could of course say “I’m 17.5dm tall”, but at this point “I’m 175cm tall” is shorter (no dot).
That said I’ve seen plenty people measuring height in metres and then centimetres. Usually something like “I’m one [metre] and 75 [centimetres] tall”.
decimeters is perfectly fine. basically all volume calculations boil down to dm³ as 1 dm³ = 1L
I measure battery capacity and electricity consumption in J/kJ/MJ, as intended. None of that kWh bullshit.
It also makes for fun comparison with energy value of foods.
Energy is energy, after all.
Relevant Technology Connections
im a fan of giving energy in: kg • m² ÷ s²
What, you still multiply by an arbitrary constant? I remember back before I switched to: kg • c²
And yet the cowards refuse to use megagrams. If SI prefixes are so great use them consistently rather than stealing other unit names and giving them another definition.
Also metric byte sizes deserve the fires of hell. Powers of 2 or get out.
Ah yes, I need a hard drive containing 4 times 2 to the power of 40 bytes
- statements dreamt up by the utterly deranged
We don’t use mega grams because kilo is the SI unit. And there’s no such thing as metric byte. That’s the sales department finding out that 104 MB is a larger number than 100 MiB.
In SI units a megagram would be equal to 1000 kilograms, because that’s how SI unit prefixes work. Except we call it a tonne instead, which I believe is what the original commenter is referencing.
Thank you for this pedantry, I will now remove the word “tonne” from my vocabulary and insist I have only ever heard of megagrams. Bless you
The one thing metric screws up is file size.
A gigabyte is 1000 megabytes or 1,000,000 kilobytes or 1,000,000,000 bytes.
A gibibyte is 1024 mebibyte or 1,048,576 kibibyte or 1,073,741,824 bytes, because it needs to go by increments of a power of 2.
This would be fine except gigabyte also means gibibyte. So if a file claims to be N GBs, I don’t know if it actually means metric GBs or GiBs.
That is not exactly metric 's fault though. It’s whoever made the decision to portray stuff as such in operating systems
Imperial thinking people most likely
I got a question about hard drive sizes on a math test 15 years ago. Was super frustrating, since I didn’t know wether or not the person who wrote the test, knew the difference.
At least the US temperature scale is safe from ridicule, as Lord Fahrenheit was German/Polish.
Edit: /s, obviously.
How is it safe from ridicule? It’s dumb
Fahrenheit is still bullshit.
As a Canadian, I’m deeply frustrated that we are taught the metric system but everything related to construction uses the feet/inch system, because USA.
It’s more than that
Heights are almost expressed in feet and inches when it comes to people, and oven temperatures in Farenheight
But then outdoor temps are in Celsius, and measurements are often in CM / M oh and boy temp is Farenheight too cause of course lol
Yep. You can add to that the weight of people and other random things expressed in lb, while we are taught kg in school.
The ratio of a circle’s circumference to its radius is now 10
I remember discussing with a huge group of European students what imperial had become mainly used for in UK and Ireland. It’s for height and pizza size. I was in a group with many girls so us guys stopped short of mentioning about dick size being one of the few things imperial is only used for in UK and Ireland.
Sigh, I’m going to get downvoted to hell for this, I’m sure. After a 16 year career as a machinist in the US and having to easily change between both systems daily, one system is dozenal and fractional and one is decimal based. Dozenal and fractional are both easier and faster when you start thinking that way. A mile isn’t 1760 yards precisely, it’s 5,280 feet. 5,280 / 12 = 440. It’s dozenal. All units, and I mean all units are arbitrary. Someone just decided x means y. Whether it’s “this amount of silicon atoms is 1kg” or “this specific length of barley corn is 1 inch” - they’re both defined by a decision that someone (or a group) just kinda made.
both easier and faster when you start thinking that way.
Let me translate: “This system is easier because I am more used to it”.
I can assure you there is nothing difficult about decimals if you are used to them.
No, I’m incredibly used to both, and that’s my point.
Actually, I’m in the mood to go on a rant here. You’re using the metric system incorrectly. The odds are that you will list something as ~900 mm. Be mad, whatever, but I’ve seen this kind of thing on literally thousands of prints. Sure, for formal precision reasons you’d list it that way. However, in my long career not a single person has used the feature of metric that should make it easy. Not a single person has ever mentioned deca/deci/hexa etc. meters. Ever. Metric is far and away objectively not simpler; most people just refuse to use it to its full potential to make it even easier by only thinking in 4 units (those being mm, cm, m, and 1km). Actually, metric technically has infinite units.
I’ve had a long professional career of measuring physical things. They’re both bad. Dozenal and fractional systems are objectively faster for building/making things. Decimal is better if you want to measure small things/amounts.
Then there’s the fact that ISO 9001 tolerances are much higher for metric listings. Yeah, it’s incredibly stupid that prints that are transferred from most places to the US and vice versa get converted twice from both systems. However, the 9001 standard for metric tolerances is usually +/- 0.05mm, which is 0.002". In my line of work that is a huge tolerance. Siemens Medical is the worst about this. They allow 0.381mm everywhere, which is 0.015". I’m not trying to say that US manufacturing is better, or vice versa. It’s just that both systems have ways of being awful.
So please give me an example of “building things” and why metric would not be better when measuring "small things*. Like I can measure anything in both units just fine, its whats the tool is telling me isn’t it? So it’s either about up/down scaling, which is just multiply by 10^x for the amount you need (aka slide the decimal point to where you need it)
I agree. I use both and have for decades now. It just seems Europeans can’t handle fractions despite their puny efforts to do so.
It’s really frustrating how many people don’t understand the systems are equally arbitrary. A barleycorn is just as arbitrary as one 10 millionth of the distance between the equator and north pole (or recalculating that based on the speed of light)
As an old toolmaker, I agree. It’s like Europeans suck at understanding math(s) just as much as 'Muricans. Fractions are NOT complicated, if a bit crude for precision. Not that either system matters much anymore. It’s all just G20/G21 anyway. It’s all either just a push of a button or a G-code away.
If the machine doesn’t care about the units are being used, why should I?
Yeah. The older machines needed you to manually convert before using that code, but it is a non-issue now as far as making things with cnc. Measuring, though? People get weird.
I know. People are stupid. All of them on both sides of this ridiculous argument.
Anyway, I’mma go to the liquor store and get me 750ml bottle of bourbon and then pop over to the grocery store and buy 5lbs(2.3kg) of flour because I’m a cup of flour short to bake 2 loves of bread. Oh, remind me to get a pound of butter(454g) because I need 1/4 a stick of butter for the butter chicken masala I’m making for supper.
(I hope I added enough sand to everyone’s underwear)
Ok, and what’s the significance of 440?
440 ÷ 12 = 110 ÷ 3 = 36⅔Is that really a dozenal (sic. duodecimal) system? Or more like a copecimal system?
The yard is something born of convenience. It isn’t really used seriously outside of American football and spirit levels for some reason. And, you are right - there is no real significance to it. The vast majority of Americans ignore the yard outsideof very fast estimates for good reason, it needs 4 to fit the concept of 12.
I was not talking about the yard at all. I was talking about 440. Which is a number not wholly divisible by 12.
Be true. It isn’t a duodecimal system. Sometimes it needs 12 to get to the next highest unit, sometimes 3 or 8 or 16 or 14 or 5280.
Being entirely duodecimal would be kinda cool in fact. But it’s not applicable and shouldn’t be used as an argument pro US customary system.
You’ve been hit by…
You’ve been struck by…
A smooth metric system
Annie, are you Oakley? Are you Oakley, Annie?
We all know it’s a much better system. Reagan killed our attempt at switching. No one has tried since.
Personally, I use metric for 3D printing, and I use imperial for wood working. Until standardized material sizes change, it doesn’t make sense to use metric for wood working. That change needs to come from the top, from government regulation.
Whats funny is the oil and gas industry has orders of magnitude worse units. So much so, I would say the imperial system is scared of it.
I love that I’m seeing him in the wild now. One of my favourite creators, no doubts about it.
And 1 ml of water weighs 1 gram and has a volume of 1 cubic mm
