Opponents say [Washington state] voters were persuaded at least partly because the initiative and its boosters exploited deep-seated prejudices and misunderstandings about transgender people to erode their rights.
Opponents say [Washington state] voters were persuaded at least partly because the initiative and its boosters exploited deep-seated prejudices and misunderstandings about transgender people to erode their rights.
Obviously trans people should have full rights and opportunities to participate in society in any way the rest of us can.
But beyond and aside from that, I will never understand why we have to act like sports are some sacred thing whose purity must be protected. Itās people playing with a ball. I genuinely canāt imagine why this issue has ever been anything other than āyes let whoever wants to play with the ball play with the ball.ā
It is truly weird to me how we not only accept the sports cult, but literally never even scrutinize the field. Itās grown-ups playing children games; itās definitely not that serious
Because youāre not thinking big enough. The ātrans sportsā debate is literally just bigotry. Seriously, go watch the John Oliver piece on it. Every study that has ever been done has found that any advantage trans women and girls have disappears after a few years of hormone therapy. The athletic performance of trans women is well within the range of that of cis women. Believing trans women should be banned from womenās sports because they have an unfair advantage has no more scientific validity to it than the old racist beliefs that black athletes couldnāt compete fairly in white leagues. The science has been. The studies have been performed. Cis people just refuse to believe them. Their gut feelings outweigh science and our humanity.
People just vote based on bigotry. Even most liberal āalliesā are awful at this. Most liberal allies just see trans women as drag queens, literal men in dresses, as if we donāt take medications that completely reshape our bodies on a biochemical level. Morons, even many moronic Democrats, just think ātrans woman == man in dress,ā and conclude that our sports performance must be closer to cis men than cis women. Itās just stereotypes and bigotry. Thatās all this is.
And thatās the problem. Because once youāve given into one form of irrational, unscientific bigotry, you have no reason to ever stop. If you wonāt listen to the science when bigots say trans women have an unfair advantage in sports, you wonāt listen to science when bigots say that trans women are a threat in womenās restrooms and locker rooms. If you donāt give a shit about science, youāll have no problem caving to bigots who hand wring about trans kids receiving trans healthcare. Itās completely unscientific and bigoted to let a tiny minuscule regret rate influence your conclusion, but if youāve abandoned science once, youāll do it again.
As a trans person, I honestly do not give two shits about sports. But what I DO care about is the precedent it sets. There has never been a state that passed a trans sports ban through its legislature that then didnāt also go on to persecute trans people in numerous areas of life.
Think more than two seconds into the future.
Remember, Jim Crow was passed because white women didnāt āfeel comfortableā sharing spaces with black women.
With that framing, I agree. But thatās a strawman. Most people donāt care for the romantic vision of a āpureā sport but rather, the general idea of keeping sports fair for kids. 1/2 the rules in all sports are about keeping things fair. Age buckets, weight ranges, gender, a system of leagues (ex varisty vs JV) to sort players on skill level, and so on.
So if you assume that there are biological differences between men and women that affect fairness within a competitive sport and if you feel those differences largely do not go away until after some form of medical transition and if you think sports are important in kids lives & keeping them fair is important - then you vote the way
blue WAdid.Agreed, even if trans people absolutely dominated in every sport they participated in, why does the government need to be involved beyond prohibiting discrimination? Let the various sports organizations determine the best way for everyone to be able to participate fairly. It certainly shouldnāt be a top issue with all the other problems in the world.
I donāt understand why we even have men and women leagues. Make an A league, a B league and a C league. If A League is 90% men for most sports and C league 90% women, so be it.
There are ābiologicalā women who crush their respective sports and I donāt know why they are viewed differently than a trans women who does the same.
Lol you seriously just donāt get it do you.
Google about the time Serena and Venus Williams said they could beat any man outside the top 200. Remember they were ranked number 1 in womenās tennis and were absolutely crushing the womenās league back in 1998 when this happened.
They played a man who was number 203 and he absolutely smoked both of them. If you watch it you can tell heās not even trying, something the Williams sisters even acknowledged in the interviews after. After that match, the Williams sisters, the best 2 players in womenās tennis went on record and said if they had to compete in the menās league they didnāt even think theyād be able to place, and the level of competitive difference was āinsaneā. Thatās straight from the mouths of the 2 best women in the world at their sport, and to this day the GOATed 2 competitors of their sport.
Iāve been involved in martial arts for almost 35 years now. Iāve been instructing for almost 20 of those years. I was professionally competitive back in the Pride days. Iāve trained with some of the best women fighters in the world, and none of them could beat me, and when I did I wasnāt even competitive or ranked. Iād even concede the fact that several of those womenās technique and form was better than mine. But the strength and speed differences are too great to be ignored. In the same weight class itās not even competitive. Iāve given up 2 whole weight classes to women in practice before and itās still not competitive. I can easily overpower women who are trained fighters who have almost 80lbs on me. The differences between a biological man and woman are insane.
Which brings me to the trans people in sports debate. I donāt think itās fair at all for trans people to compete. A biological woman can be disqualified permanently for competing in virtually any league if itās found sheās taken testosterone even once. Because testosterone creates PERMANENT changes to musculoskeletal mass. No amount of HRT can undo the differences in muscle mass and bone density that a person gets when he goes through puberty as a male. And as far as women who transition to menā¦ theyāre taking testosterone supplimentally and can too easily mask doping methods behind their HRT treatments. Itās far too easy for trans men athletes to cheat.
There are some crazy people out there who are saying that HRT should be over the counter and should be available to children because of this. Which is insane. First, I wouldnāt trust any life long decision Iādve ever made until I was around 22, and that might be being generous in retrospect. Second HRT has some serious side effects and should be an absolute last resort. I still think the attempt should be made to try and make someone comfortable in their own body and definitely need some psych approval before making such a life altering decision. And finallyā¦ you need to be out of puberty before you start playing around with major hormones like that. The teenage years are crazy enough with all that and you really want to pile on more? Why not force feed them LSD while youāre at it CIA style? I think it might be less mentally damaging.
Final note and itās more a vent than anything. A trans supporter seriously told me that Iām transphobic because I said I wouldnāt date a trans person as Iād be uncomfortable with that. They took this to mean that I didnāt accept them as a woman fully, which on reflection is kinda true, on a sexual attraction level it would be hard for me to resolve mentally that this person who is now definitely a woman wasnāt once a man. I think itās equally ridiculous that my sexual preferences can be dictated by others and if Iām uncomfortable with intimacy of that nature that somehow makes me a bigot, especially when Iāve gone out of my way to accommodate and support the trans community. Iāve always supported the gay community, even back in the 90s and early 2000s living in an area whereā¦ you just didnāt in those days. When a guy came out in our conservative school back in the day, I literally defended him, and went to bat at 5 to 1 odds. And no gay guy ever said I had to be on board with dating one of them to support the community.
And yes, despite being against trans people competing in sports and being uncomfortable with dating a trans person, I still consider myself to be a supporter of the community. I believe everyone has a right to be happy, and if thatās what it takes, go for it. And push comes to shove youād better bet Iāll do what I can to protect a trans person should they need it, as I would stand up for any victim to any bully. Hopefully Iām not just branded ātransphobicā and seen as an enemy when I disagree with you on a few points.
Cool anecdote or whatever, but just because you feel a certain way doesnāt change the facts. Study after study after study shows transgender athletes do not have any advatanges over their cisgender peers after long term HRT. If trans folks could easily cheat and gain an advantage, why arenāt they? Itās not like trans people are mystical elves who do no wrong; there are absolutely evil trans folks out there, so why arenāt they dominating sports leagues with their supposed inherent biological advantages? How come we just gotta hear about some whiny woman who tied for 5th place in a swim competition one time?
Nobody cares about what you think proper trans care should be because thatās a discussion that should be between a person and their doctor. If a doctor says the best treatment for folks is to do the macarena every morning, your opinion and feelings donāt matter on the subject. Transgender youth are mostly recommended puberty blockers which is a not a permanent treatment, but if they are being perscribed HRT then that is a decision that came into play after the patient discussed things with their doctor.
You wanna be an ally? Thatās fine, but stop trying to drive the bus when you obviously have no idea what youāre talking about. The best thing you personally can do is to shut up and sit in the back.
Your own study that you just linked acknowledges a higher lean mass difference WHICH MEANS THEY HAVE MORE MUSCLE. The study says this doesnāt ānecessarily automatically translate to greater athletic abilityā which personally I think is horseshit.
Nor does it address differences in musculo-skeletal mass. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10641525/
It is absolute horseshit you think the science is squarely in your corner on this, because it most DEFINITELY isnāt.
What part of what I said above disagrees with you that this should be between a trans person and their doctor? Thatās literally what I said. Unless consensus has changed post-puberty HRT is how they do things, blockers are used until puberty stops. There are advocates out there who are saying give the HRT and blockers OTC not understanding you canāt take both, and think that such a thing should be OTC and at the childās decision alone which is INSANE.
Personally donāt plan on shutting up especially when you still havenāt addressed how you keep someone undergoing hormone treatments from beating doping in sports too. There are definitely issues with cheating already with the cis crowd, and it is actually much much easier for someone whoās taking hormones already to dope. Their levels can drop back down quicker during testing making it harder to detect cheating and steroid use.
Also itās patently ridiculous to merge womenās and menās leagues as Venus and Serena showed, and what my personal anecdote was about. Women canāt compete on the same level as men physically with sports. Itās ridiculous that Chess is separated by men and womenās leagues sure. But anything physical? Youāre joking right? Or youāve never done sports?
Again your feelings do not matter. The study I linked and the study you linked say the same thing. Iāve bolded the relevant text for the illiterate.
From my link, āWhile transgender women exhibited higher lean mass than cisgender women, their physical fitness was comparable. Current evidence is mostly low certainty and has heterogenous quality but does not support theories of inherent athletic advantages for transgender women over cisgender.ā
From your link, āWhile data are still scarce, the limited information available does not suggest that trans men and trans women have much, if any, athletic advantage post-transition. Indeed, in most cases they perform more similarly to those matching their gender identity, or somewhere between cis men and women.ā
It doesnāt matter what you feel like the truth is. It doesnāt matter what you call horseshit because your words are not as reliable as the statements of doctors and researchers. Nobody cares that youāve done your own research because you arenāt an expert if you obviously canāt read.
As for your argument about advocates of OTC, thatās a nice strawman to build up, but until I see doctors widely recommending over the counter HRT for trans youth to self medicate, itās meaningless to get all pissy about it. Itās the equivalent of claiming, āSomeone on Twitter told me they advocate for drunk driving so I think we should just ban cars all together.ā
And I donāt know what should be done about sports, but thatās because Iām not a sports medicine expert and clearly, neither are you. Itās great that you really like sports and value the integrity of the field or whatever, but your feelings about your hobby should have no bearing on wider social policy.
Again, hotly debated topic and even by their own results there ARE differences. Lean muscle mass IS greater in trans female athletes. Doping is easier to conceal in trans male athletes.
Bold assumption that I didnāt go to college and donāt have a bachelors in Exercise Science. I mean all Iāve ever wanted to do in life is train athletes lol.
But hey you can believe what you want and Iāll certainly continue believing what I do. I think your problem is largely that most sports at the moment, the sports medicine experts ARE advocating against trans athlete participation. The opinions of the researchers and scientists in those studies concluded that lean muscle mass doesnāt result in a competitive advantage. That is totally NOT the consensus of the field at large, and why people educated on the subject like myself are leery of the political impact on studies like this. Lean muscle mass as percentage of body weight remains the best predictor of physical ability. Thatās not even addressing musculo-skeletal differences which deals with how muscle attaches to the skeleton or how muscle structurally forms, which IS different between the sexes, and unfortunately, presently HRT doesnāt affect, those differences persist regardless of puberty blockers present in prepubescence. Soā¦ tech has to get better to transition more completely.
The studies we both posted are reliable when you read them wrong and thought they agreed with you, but now they are unreliable when I point out you read them wrong and they disagree with you. What incredible judgement youāve displayed. Your thoughts and ideas are really good and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter and discussion boards where you and other āpeople educated on the subjectā congregate. /s
Youāre reading the conclusions of the researchers and ignoring the actual numbers, which again, for the very last time actually do support a physical difference on muscle, and at this point youāve descended to ad hominem and weāll agree to disagree.
So your best possible argument is āthe evidence is inconclusive.ā
THEN WHY THE FUCK ARE WE PERSECUTING A MINORITY GROUP WHEN THE BEST EVIDENCE YOU CAN HAVE IS āMAYBE THEREāS A TINY DIFFERENCE, IDK?ā
Seriously. Listen to yourself. Weāre talking about the civil rights of real human beings. That is NOT the kind of thing you fuck with unless you have an extremely serious reason to do so. Like, if after we let trans women play sports, suddenly we were dominating competitions left and right, obviously outperforming cis women in an unfair way.
The best shit you got is, āwell, the evidence is inconclusive.ā
Itās called innocent til proven fucking guilty. You donāt persecute people on a whim or a hunch.
My personal opinion on the subject is that the inherent lean mass increase and musculo-skeletal differences which affect how the muscle connects to the bone and is structured. Differences that persist despite puberty blockers. Those specific differences are still being studied but it is my FIRM opinion based on differences between men and women in strength that are very much apparent, this is an unfair advantage period, and I cannot and will not support trans athletes, period.
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Hey buddy, I think you may have responded to the wrong person. I also know that the research says that transgender athletes exhibit no clear advantages from being trans.
I know people think we seperate men and womenās sports out of safety for women, but historically the reason was they just didnāt want women doing things (shocker i know). People just started thinking it was for āfemale safetyā.
In their minds tho, itās a man playing with women, which is a legitimate concern to them. Even people who think positively about trans people will cite that as their concern, just like you have.
Kind of insane thinking that not wanting to date a trans person makes you transphobic. Thats like getting upset a former slave owner doesnāt think positively about black people after slavery ended. Expecting people to suddenly wake up and feel differently about something is not a successful strategy.
People dont want to hear this because to flip sides quick, in THEIR minds, anything less than full trans support means you are actively calling for a trans genocide. And nothing can change THEIR minds either. Politicians love this. We will be stuck in an eternal tug of war where they will never have to address other issues and this one will never be resolved.
IMO the solution for now, which isnt fair to the trans community, would be that if you are trans then you give up competitive school sports. Intramural, YMCA, bar league, etc etc are still fine. You can still play, just not in competitive high school or college sports. And that would be a sacrifice each and every trans person would make.
Because the right celebrates they finally kept āthose pesky trans kidsā out of their sacred sportsā¦ and then what? Do you think they would want trans kids out of school altogether? Slippery slope fallacy style? I dont think they would get nearly as much support for that as they currently have for the sports topic.
Racism still exists but its gotten much better after the racists started dying off and younger kids saw skin color was not a reason to hate people. The same will happen with trans people. Right now its āweirdā or āscaryā for some people, but their kids will be a bit more open to it. Theres no way to speed this up. Sometimes we have to endure the circumstances of our time.
Dude separation of men and womenās events goes back to ancient Greece. The first olympics thousands of years ago was segregated by sex. Maybe Christo-fascists framed it that way but honestly itās always been because pound for pound a woman just doesnāt compete with a man and itās inherently not fair.
And yes seriously, I didnāt want to have a relationship with a trans person and multiple people labeled me as a transphobe over it which is totally not the case. I was friends with her before and after she transitioned and it wasā¦ weird for me and something I didnāt want. That to me was particularly insane, like, what more do you want from me?
Iām glad you at least have a sane and middle of the road thinking, and can see that there are at least levels to support.
We do not need to give in to fascist demands. The actual solution is to simply dismiss these concerns as rightfully inconsequential. It is the equivalent of politicans running on a policy of womenās volleyball uniforms.
You claim the slippery slope wouldnāt happen as you directly describe the slope youād slip down. If any credence is given to the bullshit of, ātrans folks should be banned from sportsā then that will absolutely, 100% be used as reasoning to ban them from other parts of life.
Anti-social behavior like racism or sexism didnāt improve over time as old people naturally died off. The were actively defended and rights were directly fought for. What you describe as endurance is actually capitulation.
Then we can keep focusing the national spotlight on trans athletes for the next 20 years as nothing changes. I dont think anything will convice the āwe should protect women in sportsā crowd.
I know my solution is not fair to trans athletes, and if you want to frame it as ācapitulationā you can. But if all trans people, as a group, decided they would no longer play competitive high school sports then that would be the end of the trans athlete debate, and anyone still pursuing it would be seen as a conspiracy theorist. And eventually people will get annoyed with them as they pass legislation that only hurts cis girls like that Washington state bill will. And maybe, eventually, people will begin to question what the big deal was in the first place, and FINALLY let trans kids play high school sports.
You can give ground without giving up entirely.
Convince them? We donāt need to do anything of the sort because these delusional freaks are a vocal minority. Most people donāt give a fuck about what trans people are doing. Instead of trying to convince the trans community to give up their right to free expression and bodily autonomy, why donāt we tell these anti-trans weirdos to fuck off?
Your idea is absurd. Abortion access is widely popular, should we try to convince women that they should give up their access to healthcare and bodily autonomy just to maybe get it back later because we have to appease the anti-choice crowd? Should we ask black people to give up their water fountain access because of a few peopleās ālegitimate concernsā? Should immigrants not be allowed to own pets to defuse the Presidentās claims that they eat cats and dogs?
These rights need to be defended because they are everyoneās rights. If it can be stripped away from a minority, it can be stripped away from everyone.
Yelling at people online will only alienate more people from the cause.
Have fun yelling though i guess, at least it makes you feel better im sure.
Your idea is stupid and would make society worse. I think stupid ideas should be alienated. Your feelings on the matter are inconsequential when juxtaposed with the actual harm trans people face. Suggesting stupid ideas like, āgive up rights, itāll be temporary, trust me broā does more harm than your feelings being hurt.
I guess I just donāt understand why the biological difference between Muggsy Bogues and Shaq arenāt a problem and they can play in the same league but the difference between Joe and Mary are a problem. I see your viewpoint, itās just that the way I see it sports have always been about biological differences - some sports already deal with this with things like weight classes, but for those that donāt, how can you justify Muggsy and Shaq in the same league while talking about unfair biological differences?
Again are you seriously suggesting we what? Merge the WNBA with the NBA? There would be no women players that could field against the male athletes dude, thatās the entire point.
Again, Venus and Serena the GOATed all time tennis players doubted they could compete in the top 1000 if the womenās league were merged with the menās. Is that what you want? Women to get absolutely dominated by men all the time in sports? I can say itād be huge for right winged menās mental health and feeling superior I guess if nothing else.
Iām not suggesting anything at all except that sports are not so sacred that we need to literally legislate the issue at a government level for the same reason we donāt have laws about Candyland.
Apparently we do, and there are potentially millions of dollars in sports, and while fairness and equality may not be important to you they are to me, and trans people I feel violate that. I also believe in a sanctity of sports and place a high value on competition where we all agree on and can follow rules while doing something physical and having fun, I believe learning those skills are central to society.
You are seriously suggesting that your feelings about sports are a reason for the government to restrict the freedom of a minority. Why does our society have to conform around your incorrect beliefs?
No, Iām saying that they stated that lean muscle mass doesnāt affect overall athletic ability, which is absolute horseshit of the highest tier. The best predictor of physical ability has always been lean muscle mass, and I cannot find why they concluded that it wasnāt a significant factor. So my conclusion is itās political.
Thankfully this is the position of most sports professionals and those that dictate the rules. Also Washington made the sane choice on the ballot too.
Really? You really donāt know?