Opponents say [Washington state] voters were persuaded at least partly because the initiative and its boosters exploited deep-seated prejudices and misunderstandings about transgender people to erode their rights.
I know why! Itās because nobody else gets to pick their team.
ārules for thee, not for meā
Are there even any trans kids playing high school sports in Washington?? Cuz if not then all this did was inconvenience cis high school girls lol
āSorry but Susie canāt play since she didnāt turn in her gender verification form on timeā
I wish people The Good Side were open to more nuanced conversations on this topic. There are many reasons why you could oppose trans athletes in girls sports that have nothing to do with transphobia but when that conversation is placed next to the foghorn of hate from The Bad Side, nuance dies.
Obviously trans people should have full rights and opportunities to participate in society in any way the rest of us can.
But beyond and aside from that, I will never understand why we have to act like sports are some sacred thing whose purity must be protected. Itās people playing with a ball. I genuinely canāt imagine why this issue has ever been anything other than āyes let whoever wants to play with the ball play with the ball.ā
It is truly weird to me how we not only accept the sports cult, but literally never even scrutinize the field. Itās grown-ups playing children games; itās definitely not that serious
sports are some sacred thing whose purity must be protected
With that framing, I agree. But thatās a strawman. Most people donāt care for the romantic vision of a āpureā sport but rather, the general idea of keeping sports fair for kids. 1/2 the rules in all sports are about keeping things fair. Age buckets, weight ranges, gender, a system of leagues (ex varisty vs JV) to sort players on skill level, and so on.
So if you assume that there are biological differences between men and women that affect fairness within a competitive sport and if you feel those differences largely do not go away until after some form of medical transition and if you think sports are important in kids lives & keeping them fair is important - then you vote the way
blue WAdid.Agreed, even if trans people absolutely dominated in every sport they participated in, why does the government need to be involved beyond prohibiting discrimination? Let the various sports organizations determine the best way for everyone to be able to participate fairly. It certainly shouldnāt be a top issue with all the other problems in the world.
I donāt understand why we even have men and women leagues. Make an A league, a B league and a C league. If A League is 90% men for most sports and C league 90% women, so be it.
There are ābiologicalā women who crush their respective sports and I donāt know why they are viewed differently than a trans women who does the same.
and I donāt know why they are viewed differently than a trans women
Really? You really donāt know?
Lol you seriously just donāt get it do you.
Google about the time Serena and Venus Williams said they could beat any man outside the top 200. Remember they were ranked number 1 in womenās tennis and were absolutely crushing the womenās league back in 1998 when this happened.
They played a man who was number 203 and he absolutely smoked both of them. If you watch it you can tell heās not even trying, something the Williams sisters even acknowledged in the interviews after. After that match, the Williams sisters, the best 2 players in womenās tennis went on record and said if they had to compete in the menās league they didnāt even think theyād be able to place, and the level of competitive difference was āinsaneā. Thatās straight from the mouths of the 2 best women in the world at their sport, and to this day the GOATed 2 competitors of their sport.
Iāve been involved in martial arts for almost 35 years now. Iāve been instructing for almost 20 of those years. I was professionally competitive back in the Pride days. Iāve trained with some of the best women fighters in the world, and none of them could beat me, and when I did I wasnāt even competitive or ranked. Iād even concede the fact that several of those womenās technique and form was better than mine. But the strength and speed differences are too great to be ignored. In the same weight class itās not even competitive. Iāve given up 2 whole weight classes to women in practice before and itās still not competitive. I can easily overpower women who are trained fighters who have almost 80lbs on me. The differences between a biological man and woman are insane.
Which brings me to the trans people in sports debate. I donāt think itās fair at all for trans people to compete. A biological woman can be disqualified permanently for competing in virtually any league if itās found sheās taken testosterone even once. Because testosterone creates PERMANENT changes to musculoskeletal mass. No amount of HRT can undo the differences in muscle mass and bone density that a person gets when he goes through puberty as a male. And as far as women who transition to menā¦ theyāre taking testosterone supplimentally and can too easily mask doping methods behind their HRT treatments. Itās far too easy for trans men athletes to cheat.
There are some crazy people out there who are saying that HRT should be over the counter and should be available to children because of this. Which is insane. First, I wouldnāt trust any life long decision Iādve ever made until I was around 22, and that might be being generous in retrospect. Second HRT has some serious side effects and should be an absolute last resort. I still think the attempt should be made to try and make someone comfortable in their own body and definitely need some psych approval before making such a life altering decision. And finallyā¦ you need to be out of puberty before you start playing around with major hormones like that. The teenage years are crazy enough with all that and you really want to pile on more? Why not force feed them LSD while youāre at it CIA style? I think it might be less mentally damaging.
Final note and itās more a vent than anything. A trans supporter seriously told me that Iām transphobic because I said I wouldnāt date a trans person as Iād be uncomfortable with that. They took this to mean that I didnāt accept them as a woman fully, which on reflection is kinda true, on a sexual attraction level it would be hard for me to resolve mentally that this person who is now definitely a woman wasnāt once a man. I think itās equally ridiculous that my sexual preferences can be dictated by others and if Iām uncomfortable with intimacy of that nature that somehow makes me a bigot, especially when Iāve gone out of my way to accommodate and support the trans community. Iāve always supported the gay community, even back in the 90s and early 2000s living in an area whereā¦ you just didnāt in those days. When a guy came out in our conservative school back in the day, I literally defended him, and went to bat at 5 to 1 odds. And no gay guy ever said I had to be on board with dating one of them to support the community.
And yes, despite being against trans people competing in sports and being uncomfortable with dating a trans person, I still consider myself to be a supporter of the community. I believe everyone has a right to be happy, and if thatās what it takes, go for it. And push comes to shove youād better bet Iāll do what I can to protect a trans person should they need it, as I would stand up for any victim to any bully. Hopefully Iām not just branded ātransphobicā and seen as an enemy when I disagree with you on a few points.
I know people think we seperate men and womenās sports out of safety for women, but historically the reason was they just didnāt want women doing things (shocker i know). People just started thinking it was for āfemale safetyā.
In their minds tho, itās a man playing with women, which is a legitimate concern to them. Even people who think positively about trans people will cite that as their concern, just like you have.
Kind of insane thinking that not wanting to date a trans person makes you transphobic. Thats like getting upset a former slave owner doesnāt think positively about black people after slavery ended. Expecting people to suddenly wake up and feel differently about something is not a successful strategy.
People dont want to hear this because to flip sides quick, in THEIR minds, anything less than full trans support means you are actively calling for a trans genocide. And nothing can change THEIR minds either. Politicians love this. We will be stuck in an eternal tug of war where they will never have to address other issues and this one will never be resolved.
IMO the solution for now, which isnt fair to the trans community, would be that if you are trans then you give up competitive school sports. Intramural, YMCA, bar league, etc etc are still fine. You can still play, just not in competitive high school or college sports. And that would be a sacrifice each and every trans person would make.
Because the right celebrates they finally kept āthose pesky trans kidsā out of their sacred sportsā¦ and then what? Do you think they would want trans kids out of school altogether? Slippery slope fallacy style? I dont think they would get nearly as much support for that as they currently have for the sports topic.
Racism still exists but its gotten much better after the racists started dying off and younger kids saw skin color was not a reason to hate people. The same will happen with trans people. Right now its āweirdā or āscaryā for some people, but their kids will be a bit more open to it. Theres no way to speed this up. Sometimes we have to endure the circumstances of our time.
Dude separation of men and womenās events goes back to ancient Greece. The first olympics thousands of years ago was segregated by sex. Maybe Christo-fascists framed it that way but honestly itās always been because pound for pound a woman just doesnāt compete with a man and itās inherently not fair.
And yes seriously, I didnāt want to have a relationship with a trans person and multiple people labeled me as a transphobe over it which is totally not the case. I was friends with her before and after she transitioned and it wasā¦ weird for me and something I didnāt want. That to me was particularly insane, like, what more do you want from me?
Iām glad you at least have a sane and middle of the road thinking, and can see that there are at least levels to support.
Cool anecdote or whatever, but just because you feel a certain way doesnāt change the facts. Study after study after study shows transgender athletes do not have any advatanges over their cisgender peers after long term HRT. If trans folks could easily cheat and gain an advantage, why arenāt they? Itās not like trans people are mystical elves who do no wrong; there are absolutely evil trans folks out there, so why arenāt they dominating sports leagues with their supposed inherent biological advantages? How come we just gotta hear about some whiny woman who tied for 5th place in a swim competition one time?
Nobody cares about what you think proper trans care should be because thatās a discussion that should be between a person and their doctor. If a doctor says the best treatment for folks is to do the macarena every morning, your opinion and feelings donāt matter on the subject. Transgender youth are mostly recommended puberty blockers which is a not a permanent treatment, but if they are being perscribed HRT then that is a decision that came into play after the patient discussed things with their doctor.
You wanna be an ally? Thatās fine, but stop trying to drive the bus when you obviously have no idea what youāre talking about. The best thing you personally can do is to shut up and sit in the back.
Your own study that you just linked acknowledges a higher lean mass difference WHICH MEANS THEY HAVE MORE MUSCLE. The study says this doesnāt ānecessarily automatically translate to greater athletic abilityā which personally I think is horseshit.
Nor does it address differences in musculo-skeletal mass. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10641525/
It is absolute horseshit you think the science is squarely in your corner on this, because it most DEFINITELY isnāt.
What part of what I said above disagrees with you that this should be between a trans person and their doctor? Thatās literally what I said. Unless consensus has changed post-puberty HRT is how they do things, blockers are used until puberty stops. There are advocates out there who are saying give the HRT and blockers OTC not understanding you canāt take both, and think that such a thing should be OTC and at the childās decision alone which is INSANE.
Personally donāt plan on shutting up especially when you still havenāt addressed how you keep someone undergoing hormone treatments from beating doping in sports too. There are definitely issues with cheating already with the cis crowd, and it is actually much much easier for someone whoās taking hormones already to dope. Their levels can drop back down quicker during testing making it harder to detect cheating and steroid use.
Also itās patently ridiculous to merge womenās and menās leagues as Venus and Serena showed, and what my personal anecdote was about. Women canāt compete on the same level as men physically with sports. Itās ridiculous that Chess is separated by men and womenās leagues sure. But anything physical? Youāre joking right? Or youāve never done sports?
Again your feelings do not matter. The study I linked and the study you linked say the same thing. Iāve bolded the relevant text for the illiterate.
From my link, āWhile transgender women exhibited higher lean mass than cisgender women, their physical fitness was comparable. Current evidence is mostly low certainty and has heterogenous quality but does not support theories of inherent athletic advantages for transgender women over cisgender.ā
From your link, āWhile data are still scarce, the limited information available does not suggest that trans men and trans women have much, if any, athletic advantage post-transition. Indeed, in most cases they perform more similarly to those matching their gender identity, or somewhere between cis men and women.ā
It doesnāt matter what you feel like the truth is. It doesnāt matter what you call horseshit because your words are not as reliable as the statements of doctors and researchers. Nobody cares that youāve done your own research because you arenāt an expert if you obviously canāt read.
As for your argument about advocates of OTC, thatās a nice strawman to build up, but until I see doctors widely recommending over the counter HRT for trans youth to self medicate, itās meaningless to get all pissy about it. Itās the equivalent of claiming, āSomeone on Twitter told me they advocate for drunk driving so I think we should just ban cars all together.ā
And I donāt know what should be done about sports, but thatās because Iām not a sports medicine expert and clearly, neither are you. Itās great that you really like sports and value the integrity of the field or whatever, but your feelings about your hobby should have no bearing on wider social policy.
Again, hotly debated topic and even by their own results there ARE differences. Lean muscle mass IS greater in trans female athletes. Doping is easier to conceal in trans male athletes.
And I donāt know what should be done about sports, but thatās because Iām not a sports medicine expert and clearly, neither are you. Itās great that you really like sports and value the integrity of the field or whatever, but your feelings about your hobby should have no bearing on wider social policy.
Bold assumption that I didnāt go to college and donāt have a bachelors in Exercise Science. I mean all Iāve ever wanted to do in life is train athletes lol.
But hey you can believe what you want and Iāll certainly continue believing what I do. I think your problem is largely that most sports at the moment, the sports medicine experts ARE advocating against trans athlete participation. The opinions of the researchers and scientists in those studies concluded that lean muscle mass doesnāt result in a competitive advantage. That is totally NOT the consensus of the field at large, and why people educated on the subject like myself are leery of the political impact on studies like this. Lean muscle mass as percentage of body weight remains the best predictor of physical ability. Thatās not even addressing musculo-skeletal differences which deals with how muscle attaches to the skeleton or how muscle structurally forms, which IS different between the sexes, and unfortunately, presently HRT doesnāt affect, those differences persist regardless of puberty blockers present in prepubescence. Soā¦ tech has to get better to transition more completely.
These attempts happened in several states in parallel, it really appears coordinated rather than a coincidence.
If we lived in a world where people really cared about girlās and womenās sports, and fairness, this would be dealt with using science and logic.
The sex divisions in sports are really ādominant hormoneā divisions. So anyone who has started puberty must be divided into the league with which their hormones align.
The studies say that a trans woman who has been at cis female levels of estrogen and testosterone for two years, has no advantage over a cis woman. Thatās the criteria. Two years, then good luck.
Itās not hard.
Not even if gone through puberty and jidt has a bigger frame over all? The other thing I could see happening cause people love to chest is go off blockers till closet to the event.
Yes, even if the trans woman has a bigger frame from a testosterone puberty.
I appreciate that you brought this up, because it does look like a clear advantage. I understand why people assume it is an advantage. However, what the science has shown, is that it ends up being a slight disadvantage.
Estrogen changes organ function, muscle mass, skin thickness, and many other facets of a human body. It changes these even if youāve had a testosterone puberty.
So, when a trans woman tries to move those heavier bones, she can not move them as fast as a cis woman, no matter what the trans woman does. Because her heart, lungs, muscle fibers, etc, those parts of her body cannot move the bones as fast any more.
Force = Mass x Velocity
A cis woman can reach a higher velocity in that equation than a trans woman. And so, she has more force. This means that a cis woman can throw a harder punch, she has a faster run, and a stronger tackle.
The trans woman cannot hit as hard, tackle as hard, or run as long or as fast, as a cis woman. This is what the science says and what testing has proven.
Think of it like two people swinging a bat. If one woman has a regular baseball bat, she can hit you hard, and it will hurt quite a lot. If another woman has a bat that is too heavy for her to swing easily, she will not hurt you as much. Even though the bat is heavier, if she can only swing it slowly, it will not hurt as much, and she will get tired of holding and swinging it, much faster.
As for your statement about cheating, what you are suggesting is no different than what cis women who want to cheat already do.
Testosterone is steroids. If a cis woman wants to cheat, she can indeed try as you say and take testosterone long before the event, but stop a few months before they test for steroids. A trans woman can do this to. The only difference is where they get their testosterone.
The same tests that can catch cis women, can catch trans women who cheat this way. Those tests are not perfect, and both women will still sometimes get away with cheating. But this is a problem that sports has, and it is not limited to trans women.
Kinda like weight classes?
As a WA resident I would like to add:
āThe largest donor to support Initiative 638, Brian Heywood, hedge fund manager and founder of Letās Go Washington, the Political Action Committee (PAC) leading the campaign in support of Initiative 638, contributed about $2.23 million. ā¦ Supporters have received $7.74 million, while opponents have received about $2.16 million.ā source
This fuck has a history of trying to control children: āThe unprecedented initiative slate would ā¦ guarantee parents access to information on K-12 school curricula and school medical records.ā source
Heās like our own state version of Elon Musk.
I get it.
Doesnāt seem like this should be the responsibility of government so much as the schools and the leagues they belong to. Why should everyone in the state get to decide as opposed to students and parents actually have to contend with the perceived issues?
Itās really not that difficult to understand. Iām very liberal but if I was a parent of a teenage girl, I would also be worried about the size and muscle difference in a teenage boy that has just started transitioning. But I also donāt think anyone should be banned from playing sports just because they are transgender. The easiest solution in my mind is just make weight divisions like they do in wrestling for example.
My boy wrestled in high school and I would have been just as concerned with him wrestling some of those āgrown ass menā in high school.
Remove gender requirements and make weight classes, maybe weight and size limits, or maybe just an open division if the participants/parents arenāt worried for any sport that someone might get hurt because of the size difference.
There isnāt a perfect solution but I do understand the concern.
First: part of the point of sports in secondary education is team building. Not every kid wants to play football, as much as they want to play football in their school team with their friends and classmates.
Second, most schools do not have the populations to support more than a handful of teams for the most popular sports, and a single team for less popular sports. This could work for individual sports, like track or swimming, but basketball and baseball might struggle.
Third: where do you draw the lines? This is a solvable question if Informed by the first 2, but it raises blood pressure.
I have no personal stake in this. I didnāt know I was trans in school. I when I played sports, I played on the boys teams. But the question I come back to is: are trans girlsā¦girls?
If they are, what is the problem? We donāt ban tall girls from girls basketball. We donāt ban strong girls from girls wrestling. We celebrate them. Should Michael phelps have his medals revoked because he clearly has natural advantages in swimming?
The whole controversy is only a controversy if you donāt actually think we are the gender we say we are.
I understand the point. And yes everyone should be allowed to participate. I am just playing devils advocate and understanding why parents think this way. Hell I wouldnāt let my own kid play football regardless. Itās brutal. Well full contact tackle. Flag football was really fun in college. And the population problem is always a problem with small schools. I transferred for a tiny high school in WV to a giant school in NC and was floored by some of the sports they had. I donāt even know you could have a high school swim team or golf.
There isnāt a perfect easy solution. If I had a little girl in high school athletics, Iād be like fuck it, play whatever. If another player is better than you, transgender or not, get better. Train harder. As an adult life is hard. Nothing is fair. What we really should be banning is the rich kids, theyāre the ones with the true advantages š
Thank you. This is the allyship I wish for.
So youād vote for mandatory genital inspections for girls? Because thats what this vote did.
No. Absolutely not. If you had actually read my reply the most intrusive check would be stepping on a scale.
I never said I agreed with the law, just empathized with the concern.
People need to understand both sides of an argument and the nuance associated with it. Not immediately jump into fully armored social justice warrior.
I read your reply, but disagree with the concern parents have being valid, because its unfounded. There is no scientifically backed proof of trans individuals having an advantage in sports, and trans kids getting gender affirming care are often placed on hormone blockers. The hormones involved in teenagers also wildly fluctuate. I agree with the premise of weight class, but the āconcernā parents have about their little girl playing against a big scary āmanā with teenage testosterone muscles (their words, not yours, before you say Iām putting words in your mouth) is fueled by misinformation about trans individuals, gender affirming care, and the amount of impact these individuals even have in sports. and as a result we now have genital inspections for kids.
I dont think people falling for fearmongering is a valid concern, and I think we shouldnāt be coddling this kind of concern any more than we should tolerate racist concerns.
Most of the transgender people I have run into were adults that transitioned later in life and that is what most people are exposed to. After puberty, transition is a completely different experience. And yes there are studies that talk about the advantages transitioning post puberty.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12312191
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40820509/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8311086
Several of these studies show that estrogen and testosterone suppression generally reduce lean mass, muscle size, and some strength measures. However, the evidence is not consistent about how completely those measures converge with those of cisgender women. The last link found that some muscle and strength differences persisted after hormone treatment, including in studies extending to three years.
So no this is not fear mongering.
With out getting past the paybwall, were talking about minors here. Not adults.
Weird, gross comments about womenās bodies you find icky. We already had a system in place for women like us and it was dismantled by morons. Transition isnāt a ācompletely different experienceā post puberty for fucks sake.
Cis people are so gross
This would hold some validity in contact sports, much less so in all the other sports. I wouldnāt be concerned about my kidās welfare in a swimming competition, for instance.
But that requires nuance.
No, I wouldnāt be concerned about my kids welfare in something like swimming. Basically any sport you are essentially competing against yourself: golf, track, diving, etc.
I also donāt believe there are many contact girl sports so Iām not sure it even matters that much. Basketball maybe?
Then what exactly is the point of your post? The only things you mention are wrestling, size and muscle difference between boys (and therefore transitioning girls who arenāt taking hormones) and girls, wrestling, and weight classes (which are typically used in contact sports). Only one of those has factors that arenāt solely issues with contact sports, but the tone of your post implies physical risk, and size/weight would only matter in that context in contact sports, too.
Iām am not for laws like this first and foremost. I am just trying to point out why people would vote for something like this. My point is there is a perceived advantage for men transitioning to female. And apparently, post puberty there is some scientific data to back this up. I am not saying it is true. I am saying there is some data. And I think the only legitimate argument is that because of some of these perceived physical advantages, anything where the safety of the participants comes into question is a basis for separation. Any non-contact sport should just be allowed. Some cis girls are going to be genetically superior than other cis curls. And the same goes for transgender girls. There is always going to be someone bigger, better, stronger regardless of anything else. I donāt live in that state, I do not have teenage girls, so I am not arguing one side or the other.
If I did have teenage girls, as I said in a previous statement, Iād be like fuck it, let everyone compete. If someone is better than you, and there will always be someone better, work harder, train harder.
Isnāt it against the rules to touch other players? I wouldnāt have thought basketball was contact.
Have you ever played basketball? Itās āsupposedā to be non-contact I agree but depending on the position can be brutal.
Or maybe people just voted about how they feel on an issue without it being part of some anti trans conspiracy
Well, itās not much of a conspiracy, it happened in plain sight.
I want to make clear that I support trans people participating in any recreational activity, I support their rights as much as anyone, and that this initiative throws a burden on all female children for the sake of a punishing a few, the competitiveness argument is totally based on assumptions and prejudice not backed by fact-based evidence, the issue is pushed by conservative culture war propagandists, and all that.
That all said, I donāt think most WA voters who voted for I-638 did so because they hate trans people, or think they shouldnāt exist as people. Hateful and spiteful people do exist but they are a minority. Rather, on this specific wedge issue, again based on flawed prejudice pushed by conservatives, opinions seem more to be framed around something similar to why 40 year olds canāt compete in an Over-50 bracket of a tournament.
I think many ānormiesā do not even have a good idea, what transpeople really are. They hear ātransā and āboys in girlsā sportsā, and they are imagining a burly transvestite caricature with stubble wresting little girls, and not a twink femboy playing basketball.
I can at least understand the opposition argument on this one (unlike most other anti-trans initiatives). To them, a trans girl in highschool is just a boy who decided to call themself a girl. They donāt understand what would make someone want to do that - they just see the surface level, and that logically resolves to āA boy can say theyāre trans to compete against girlsā. I can see where theyād object to that. And purely from a competitiveness standpoint, one could argue that a trans girl who hasnāt started any hormone therapy or anything of the sort is, in effect, as physically capable as her male classmates.
And, yes - a boy who just wanted to appear to perform better at sports could in theory do that. Itās just that reasonable people tend not to want to pass legislation against an entire class of people because of the potential for a few bad actors. Itās like banning N95 masks because someone could wear one to hide their face during a robbery.
But why focus on boys pretending to be girls and not girls pretending to be boys? Doesnāt that just point to the underlying misogyny and pedophilic instincts of the people wanting to inspect little girl genitals?
In the context of sports? Because the argument is that testosterone makes boys more physically capable and therefore provides an unfair advantage in sports when theyāre competing against girls. Since trans boys typically donāt have the same levels of testosterone that biological boys do (particularly in high school, where they likely arenāt getting hormone therapy or havenāt been for long), in their eyes, a trans boy competing in boysā sports would be at a disadvantage.
As a point of interest, in some states, a girl can choose to try out for the boysā team if they want to, but Iām not aware of anywhere with gendered teams where a boy can try out for the girlsā team.
You said it better than I did.
Misogyny
Even trans women get classic misogyny.
I wasnāt eligible to vote for 638, but this nuanced take does a good job of describing around where I am. Iād prefer trans people are validated and can exist in society without fear or issue. Affirming care should be accessible and stigma-less
I also think natural testosterone production is a crazy-good steroid that improves muscular development. Iām not on board at all with the āchecking under skirtsā requirements of the bill but just feel uneasy with the nominal advantage of male puberty and itās impact on womenās sports. This may get called ignorant, but until Iām asked for it, my opinion doesnāt matter at all, so I have some time. And Iām only chiming in here to add credence to rentlarās take.
Itās an effective wedge issue, Iām glad that it mostly didnāt work as such, and it sucks that WA folks are going to be subject to the 638
but just feel uneasy with the nominal advantage of male puberty and itās impact on womenās sports.
I might agree if trans atheletes dominated the sports, but they are not.
A good point. I certainly think if we start legislating peopleās rights away itās reasonable to ask āIs this actually a problem?ā before proceeding.
I donāt hate trans people. I just donāt want my daughter to ever have to deal with the adults involved in this bullshit and I firmly believe that not everyone gets to do all of the things. Pick a lane and go live your life.
You do realise the adults are the one talking gential inspections for everyone right?
no one is seriously doing genital inspections. it is not mentioned in the initiative
Its required, and is in the initiative.
āthe studentās biological sex [based on]ā¦ reproductive anatomy, genetic makeup, or normal endogenously produced testosterone levels.ā
It requires either a hormone test, visual inspection, or blood test, and guess which of those is the cheapest to get?
āsigned by the studentās personal health care providerā
Inspected by a doctor. Who will be āvisually inspectingā their genitals for normal health reasons anyways.
Why did you choose to edit that out?
I edited nothing, I copied what was there straight from ballotpedia.
Women dont generally get their first pap smear until 21. Unless there is an issue that needs inspection girls dont generally have to go through genital inspections.
I guess you didnāt play in sports as a kid? Or maybe somewhere other than the US. Or, frankly, maybe it varies from practitioner to practitioner, I donāt really know.
Growing up I was required to get annual physicals in order to play. That included a very brief genital inspection. My point is these are not some barbaric molestation of kids. Itās routine in many hospitals around the world.
I edited nothing
Cutting out a very relevant piece of near by context in an otherwise well formatted quote is in fact editing something out. It wasnāt 3 pages over or irrelevant, it was in the same paragraph you edited.
reproductive anatomy - (ovaries or testes), can be checked via ultrasound.
genetic makeup - (chromosomes, presence of the SR-Y gene), can be checked via cheek swab. (easiest, least invasive, and the cheapest- so the most likely to be used.)
or normal endogenously produced testosterone levels - can be checked via blood draw.
where are you getting genital inspection from? likely the whole girls team will be lined up and cheek swabbed (like a covid test) and then they will recieve the results later privately. this doesnāt require a doctorās appointment for each player, and is the easiest option.
so genital inspections are not required and they are not mentioned in the initiative.
Iām kind of with you but I think itās bad faith to claim āreproductive anatomyā in that bill was in reference to getting an ultrasound of their ovaries. It is clearly in reference to them checking their exterior genitals.
Educate me: what is the mechanism for banning a specific student from girls sports?
Itās not all that surprising. Itās something like an 80/20 issue. Rights are rights and I think most people are to that point, but things get a bit more wobbly about this specific issue. At least at this point in time. And thatās probably even before all the bad faith arguments coming from conservatives.
Itās probably why cons worked to put these kinds of things on ballots - a re-play of the Karl Rove tactic from years ago in order to drive more cons to the polls.
I think most people just are very confused about the idea of transgenderism and what it actually means, both to those who are transgender and for everyone else.
And the answer to this? Education.
I think the issue is that, like it or not, we live in societies segregated by gender (bathrooms, prisons, sports, privileges, requirements) and the idea to just abandon all this doesnāt sit well with a lot of people, both on the right and on the left.
Or maybe people just want to keep their sports segregated and competitions protected? How many trans athletes breaking records is it going to take to realise theyāre segregated for good reason
Are the record breaking trans athletes in the room with us? Please share who they are
Your proof is one article about a political stunt by a guy who doesnt identify as trans making a statement to discredit a trans athlete that transitioned with hormones and surgery 20 years before the event?
Youāre engaging in a very disrespectful manner, with a clear agenda. You are not discussing this in good faith. I will engage with you just once now youāve moved the debateās goal posts again.
Rachel McKinnon (now Veronica Ivy) - Set a womenās world record and won gold at the 2019 Masters Track Cycling World Championships in Manchester. In 2018 set a world record in the womenās 200m sprint.
Laurel Hubbard - Set masters world records with a 131kg snatch and 149kg clean & jerk at the 2017 World Masters Games.
Mary Gregory - Four powerlifting records in 2019.
Anne Andres - Set a Canadian womenās powerlifting national record and an unofficial womenās world record.
Lia Thomas - swimming records at UPenn (wiped by US govt)
Sadie Schreiner - a few sprinting records at SIT
Cortez-Fields - swimming records at Ramapo College
AB Hernandez - high school track in California. Set a record with a 39-foot-10-inch triple jump at the 2026 winter championships
So you think trans girls are girls?
protected from what, exactly?
People who exist on the left are like a big bag of wet cats who donāt know each other in terms of aligned beliefs.
