Nah, you’re repeating far-right talking points. You have no counter-evidence other than your belief that underdeveloped rural areas cannot possibly achieve high literacy rates, when exactly that has happened everytime socialism has been established around the world. Further, in recent decades China has been focusing on the urban/rural divide.
First off, I don’t have any right wing, let alone far right propaganda in my life. I’m a progressive. Do you think a MAGA idiot would go live in China themselves? Obviously not.
I don’t actually need evidence to be correct, because I saw it first hand. But I probably can prove it anyways. The simplest way: there are multiple definitions of literacy. They now call it functioning literacy in some cases. Others get very specific such as can they read a newspaper or write a statement about a topic? I do believe China is achieving great things with their younger generations. That, I also saw first hand. Although, they conveniently rewrite history as well. Completely covering up the atrocities the government has caused. That is pretty unforgivable.
Anyways, the older generation is filled with people who are still illiterate. They are not in school. They are not learning. They are working. And mostly happy by the way. Illiteracy is not a criticism on well being. That was someone else’s argument that “they must be doing well because they’ve achieved so much LITERACY.” Those are the happiest people I’ve ever met. Willing to share their food and home with total strangers. Their jobs and their lives and their happiness do not require literacy. That is why they will never change. Only once the younger generation has outlived the older long enough to reach a 97% rate could we call it the achievement you are wanting to believe.
Anyways, none of this has anything to do with my initial statement. Both systems suck! Everyone else is throwing these random statements such as literacy to try to change the argument. Draw it into a which is better contest. It’s just like red and blue politics in America. Fuck all that. We the people, everywhere, deserve better than either of these power and control hungry psychos would have for us. Period.
How about 30-50 million dead from starvation while trying to implement communism under Mao? How about Tiananmen Square?
Do you realize that the government punishes those who bring it up and leave it out of the history books for the younger generations?
What about Uyghur genocide?
You can walk around the campus of a Chinese university, ask person after person about the Tiananmen Square massacre and no one knows what the hell you’re talking about.
You think this is the shining example of socialism that should be implemented across the globe?
You mean the one a coalition of multiple Islamic countries investigated and all agreed wasn’t a genocide? The one the UN also investigated and did not call a genocide? The one for which Wikipedia changed its article name to “Mass detention of Uyghurs” because there wasn’t sufficient grounds to call it a genocide and doesn’t give a body count? The one which, despite allegedly occurring in a country with very high rates of cell phone ownership and internet access, has produced no evidence of kill sites or mass graves?
I’ll seriously consider what you’ve said with supporting evidence. It’s the first I’ve heard of this. I’m open to being taught.
One of my experiences in China was witnessing an underground Muslim gathering and religious ceremony. We were warned about why they must operate in secret due to potential government action.
If we do change the statement from genocide to persecution, I suppose China gets a better profile, but I don’t think it is a talking point that “China’s socialism is better than US Capitalism because of their religious freedom.”
My initial argument is still that both systems suck.
This one of the markers I would use for a “good” system:
I already gave my sources on Xinjiang, so I won’t retread old ground.
The nordic countries thay have high scores on the IAHD index are a part of western imperialism. They subsidize their safety nets by plundering the surplus value of the south, and rely on institutions like the IMF and NATO to protect them and facilitate their plunder. China is not imperialist.
This is your argument? That this is allowed in a great example of Chinese socialism?
2022 report by the UN Human Rights Office (OHCHR) found that China’s arbitrary detention of Uyghurs and other predominantly Muslim minorities in Xinjiang may constitute “crimes against humanity,” citing credible evidence of torture, forced labor, and severe rights violations.
While the UN report did not formally label the actions as “genocide,” it highlighted evidence of coercive policies designed to suppress cultural and religious identity.
Key Findings of the UN Report:
Arbitrary Detention: The report confirmed that mass internment camps, termed “vocational training” by the Chinese government, functioned as centers for detention.
Torture and Abuse: Evidence was found of beatings, torture (including waterboarding), and sexual violence against detainees.
Coercive Labor: Evidence suggests a scope of forced labor, with detainees transferred to factories or high-security prisons.
Religious/Cultural Suppression: Policies aimed at “coercive Sinicization” forced individuals to abandon religious practices.
Brother. China sucks. The US sucks. Just get over it.
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing Salafi terrorist into Xinjiang, and once its efforts failed, it made lemonade out of its lemon by concocting and promoting a genocide narrative.
The only countries pushing this narrative are the “always the same map” imperial core countries, which just so happen to be largely the same ones supporting Israel’s genocide.
Almost no predominantly-Muslim country buys the Uyghur genocide narrative, because they know it’s bullshit, because they talked to the Uyghurs themselves. https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330
#HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
In accordance with China’s affirmative action policies towards ethnic minorities, all non-Han ethnic groups were subject to different laws and were usually allowed to have two children in urban areas, and three or four in rural areas.
(e) Show me the forcible transfer of children from one group to another group
violent incidents in East Turkestan
I wonder where those Salafi terrorists came from? Oh right: the US, UK, and Israel organized, funded, and trained them, as they did Al Qaeda and the various flavors of ISIS/ISIL, including the “moderate rebels” that just took over Syria. The blueprint of regime change operationsHow regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent.
Relatedly, US shenanigans in Hong Kong five years ago and in Beijing in 1989 also sucked.
I’ve already asked another commenter this but it’s valid here too: Would you class the western oppression of dissent to be on the same level as that famous student protest in China?
Only someone misinformed about the 1989 protest and US/CIA/NED-orchestrated, murderously violent riot would ask this, which to be fair is 99% of Westerners.
Edit to add: YouTube took the original video down for “violating YouTube’s terms of service,” but I found a reploaded a copy, splitting it up into three pieces. This is why you don’t know what really happened, because Western corporate media don’t want you to know. They were reuploaded just today; who knows how long they’ll stay up.
[Chinese Intellectual’s founder] Liang [Heng] had come from his New York office, where he serves as the magazine’s foreign editor, to Washington Thursday and Friday to address the board of directors at the National Endowment for Democracy – a substantial financial backer of the magazine – to tell it what he knows, what he thinks and what will possibly happen.
After his arrival in the United States, he earned his master’s degree in literature from Columbia University and secured an initial $200,000 grant from the NED, a private corporation created in 1983 to “strengthen democratic efforts worldwide,” to start his magazine.
That is not to say [Gene] Sharp has not seen any action. In 1989, he jetted off to China to witness the uprising in Tiananmen Square. In the early 1990s, he sneaked into a Myanmar rebel camp at the invitation of Robert Helvey, a retired Army colonel who advised the opposition there. They met when Helvey was on a fellowship at Harvard; the military man thought the professor had ideas that could avoid war.
You do need evidence to back your claims. Literacy rates were chosen as merely one example to prove the effectiveness of socialism in China at dramatically improving people’s lives. One person’s anecdote, especially when said person has no idea about basic socialist concepts like idealism vs. materialism, is not at all sufficient.
The truth is that capitalism sucks, and socialism works. You haven’t demonstrated that you even understand what these systems are, and have been confidently incorrect when others have explained them to you.
You add more invented problems like the idea that the CPC is “hiding atrocities.” Why should anyone take you seriously?
You don’t think the CCP* is hiding history from their people? It’s ironic you think I’m confidentially incorrect when I know for a fact you are. I don’t see this as an argument at all. This is me playing teacher to you so you can go research the many topics covered here that you don’t seem to understand. My original argument is simple. China’s system sucks. The US system sucks.
To think you can even define China’s system as socialism is ridiculous. No modern super power has an economy or government that abides by a single definition.
It is you and others here who have tried to change the argument to something you think you understand to try to “win.” It’s honestly exhausting. I’ve rewritten my thesis about 20 times and it’s still being ignored.
The irony: I like socialism. You people are simply too caught up in your own ego or something to let that sink in.
See, the key flaw here is that I’ve come to the conclusions I have precisely because I’ve researched these topics. You have been given scholarly sources proving you exactly wrong, and your only response is “nuh-uh.” That’s not acceptable proof in any setting, even a comment forum.
As for China’s system, it’s socialist because public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state. It has a highly particular socialist model fit for China’s present conditions, but it is plainly and simply socialist as fits the general characteristics of socialism.
Your thesis is being ignored because of 2 reasons: 1, it’s wrong, and 2, your only source is your own word. When scholarly sources debunking your claims are presented, you just deflect.
You don’t even seem to know what socialism is, and you seem happy to say a socialist country sucks, so your own word saying you like socialism rings extraordinarily hollow.
And it’s CPC, not CCP. Communist Party of X is the international format.
Explain to me how killing 30-50 million people is acceptable in this shining example of socialism. How about genocide? Massacre? What about Tibet? What about the impending invasion in Taiwan? Are these the everyday normal citizens taking their “control” over their system and saying GO FUCKING LEAVE A TRAIL OF BLOOD HERE AND HERE AND HERE?
It’s very very easy to point out that China has a brutal and immoral system with very common sense examples.
I just prefer my personal version because my memories of China were wonderful. As many Chinese visiting the US would agree. But the truth is obvious.
So… my PhD Chinese friend says China will likely invade Taiwan if the US engages a ground invasion in Iran.
I said, no fucking way bro.
He said ya, because the US will be spread too thin. It’s a good opportunity for China to take control of the state with almost no recourse.
I asked, but what about the TCMC?
His response was that China isn’t interested in Taiwan for that reason, rather that it’s a historical mark that persists as a blemish in the “unification of China.”
We both agree it’s not very logical.
I admit that not an A+ source, but I believe he knows more about it than me and based on decades of political rhetoric surrounding Taiwan - it’s highly likely he’s right. China does not hide the fact they will take Taiwan as soon as the US cannot respond.
I’m not sure why that would even be a question. The US is only reason the impending invasion of Taiwan has not yet occurred. This is all very easily verifiable.
I don’t think China feels a need to rush integration when they believe it’s already overdetermined, inevitable. And Taiwan isn’t going anywhere. China knows the imperialist states are in decline, having financialized/de-industrialized themselves into paper tigers. I think this war is likely to make that clear to everyone, including Taiwan’s bourgeoisie.
Yes. China has many expats. The information was revealed to the world and the Chinese government’s response? Control the Internet, all foreign media, all history books, etc.
These are extremely well known topics across the globe. Don’t take my word for it lol.
Hahahaha come live in New Zealand you fucking idiot, see what the people think about our great system. Soaring unemployment, housing crisis, cost of living crisis, corruption, austerity, mass exodus to Australia. You have no idea what you are talking about.
I don’t need to be nice to be a racist. And my only emotion Is laughter, my friend. You’ve bought a great deal of humor to myself and other people in this thread.
Nah, you’re repeating far-right talking points. You have no counter-evidence other than your belief that underdeveloped rural areas cannot possibly achieve high literacy rates, when exactly that has happened everytime socialism has been established around the world. Further, in recent decades China has been focusing on the urban/rural divide.
First off, I don’t have any right wing, let alone far right propaganda in my life. I’m a progressive. Do you think a MAGA idiot would go live in China themselves? Obviously not.
I don’t actually need evidence to be correct, because I saw it first hand. But I probably can prove it anyways. The simplest way: there are multiple definitions of literacy. They now call it functioning literacy in some cases. Others get very specific such as can they read a newspaper or write a statement about a topic? I do believe China is achieving great things with their younger generations. That, I also saw first hand. Although, they conveniently rewrite history as well. Completely covering up the atrocities the government has caused. That is pretty unforgivable.
Anyways, the older generation is filled with people who are still illiterate. They are not in school. They are not learning. They are working. And mostly happy by the way. Illiteracy is not a criticism on well being. That was someone else’s argument that “they must be doing well because they’ve achieved so much LITERACY.” Those are the happiest people I’ve ever met. Willing to share their food and home with total strangers. Their jobs and their lives and their happiness do not require literacy. That is why they will never change. Only once the younger generation has outlived the older long enough to reach a 97% rate could we call it the achievement you are wanting to believe.
Anyways, none of this has anything to do with my initial statement. Both systems suck! Everyone else is throwing these random statements such as literacy to try to change the argument. Draw it into a which is better contest. It’s just like red and blue politics in America. Fuck all that. We the people, everywhere, deserve better than either of these power and control hungry psychos would have for us. Period.
Which atrocities were those?
How about 30-50 million dead from starvation while trying to implement communism under Mao? How about Tiananmen Square?
Do you realize that the government punishes those who bring it up and leave it out of the history books for the younger generations?
What about Uyghur genocide?
You can walk around the campus of a Chinese university, ask person after person about the Tiananmen Square massacre and no one knows what the hell you’re talking about.
You think this is the shining example of socialism that should be implemented across the globe?
No thank you.
You mean the one a coalition of multiple Islamic countries investigated and all agreed wasn’t a genocide? The one the UN also investigated and did not call a genocide? The one for which Wikipedia changed its article name to “Mass detention of Uyghurs” because there wasn’t sufficient grounds to call it a genocide and doesn’t give a body count? The one which, despite allegedly occurring in a country with very high rates of cell phone ownership and internet access, has produced no evidence of kill sites or mass graves?
I’ll seriously consider what you’ve said with supporting evidence. It’s the first I’ve heard of this. I’m open to being taught.
One of my experiences in China was witnessing an underground Muslim gathering and religious ceremony. We were warned about why they must operate in secret due to potential government action.
If we do change the statement from genocide to persecution, I suppose China gets a better profile, but I don’t think it is a talking point that “China’s socialism is better than US Capitalism because of their religious freedom.”
My initial argument is still that both systems suck.
This one of the markers I would use for a “good” system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index
The Inequality Adjusted Human Development Index.
Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland… these are the leaders in this index. How? A high-welfare free market economy.
This is capitalism but with a foundation of human rights built on high taxes using examples like net wealth tax.
I already gave my sources on Xinjiang, so I won’t retread old ground.
The nordic countries thay have high scores on the IAHD index are a part of western imperialism. They subsidize their safety nets by plundering the surplus value of the south, and rely on institutions like the IMF and NATO to protect them and facilitate their plunder. China is not imperialist.
This is your argument? That this is allowed in a great example of Chinese socialism?
2022 report by the UN Human Rights Office (OHCHR) found that China’s arbitrary detention of Uyghurs and other predominantly Muslim minorities in Xinjiang may constitute “crimes against humanity,” citing credible evidence of torture, forced labor, and severe rights violations.
While the UN report did not formally label the actions as “genocide,” it highlighted evidence of coercive policies designed to suppress cultural and religious identity.
Key Findings of the UN Report:
Brother. China sucks. The US sucks. Just get over it.
Brother, CIA shenanigans in Xinjiang sucked.
Previously:
Previously:
Relatedly, US shenanigans in Hong Kong five years ago and in Beijing in 1989 also sucked.
Previously:
Previously:
Edit to add: The link to images from Beijing is broken because Reddit has since censored that entire subreddit.
You do need evidence to back your claims. Literacy rates were chosen as merely one example to prove the effectiveness of socialism in China at dramatically improving people’s lives. One person’s anecdote, especially when said person has no idea about basic socialist concepts like idealism vs. materialism, is not at all sufficient.
The truth is that capitalism sucks, and socialism works. You haven’t demonstrated that you even understand what these systems are, and have been confidently incorrect when others have explained them to you.
You add more invented problems like the idea that the CPC is “hiding atrocities.” Why should anyone take you seriously?
You don’t think the CCP* is hiding history from their people? It’s ironic you think I’m confidentially incorrect when I know for a fact you are. I don’t see this as an argument at all. This is me playing teacher to you so you can go research the many topics covered here that you don’t seem to understand. My original argument is simple. China’s system sucks. The US system sucks.
To think you can even define China’s system as socialism is ridiculous. No modern super power has an economy or government that abides by a single definition.
It is you and others here who have tried to change the argument to something you think you understand to try to “win.” It’s honestly exhausting. I’ve rewritten my thesis about 20 times and it’s still being ignored.
The irony: I like socialism. You people are simply too caught up in your own ego or something to let that sink in.
See, the key flaw here is that I’ve come to the conclusions I have precisely because I’ve researched these topics. You have been given scholarly sources proving you exactly wrong, and your only response is “nuh-uh.” That’s not acceptable proof in any setting, even a comment forum.
As for China’s system, it’s socialist because public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state. It has a highly particular socialist model fit for China’s present conditions, but it is plainly and simply socialist as fits the general characteristics of socialism.
Your thesis is being ignored because of 2 reasons: 1, it’s wrong, and 2, your only source is your own word. When scholarly sources debunking your claims are presented, you just deflect.
You don’t even seem to know what socialism is, and you seem happy to say a socialist country sucks, so your own word saying you like socialism rings extraordinarily hollow.
And it’s CPC, not CCP. Communist Party of X is the international format.
Explain to me how killing 30-50 million people is acceptable in this shining example of socialism. How about genocide? Massacre? What about Tibet? What about the impending invasion in Taiwan? Are these the everyday normal citizens taking their “control” over their system and saying GO FUCKING LEAVE A TRAIL OF BLOOD HERE AND HERE AND HERE?
It’s very very easy to point out that China has a brutal and immoral system with very common sense examples.
I just prefer my personal version because my memories of China were wonderful. As many Chinese visiting the US would agree. But the truth is obvious.
Lol. “Explain how something that hasn’t happened is ok!”
Because it hasn’t happened, dumbass. How is New Zealand nuking Canada in the future ok?
So… my PhD Chinese friend says China will likely invade Taiwan if the US engages a ground invasion in Iran.
I said, no fucking way bro.
He said ya, because the US will be spread too thin. It’s a good opportunity for China to take control of the state with almost no recourse.
I asked, but what about the TCMC?
His response was that China isn’t interested in Taiwan for that reason, rather that it’s a historical mark that persists as a blemish in the “unification of China.”
We both agree it’s not very logical.
I admit that not an A+ source, but I believe he knows more about it than me and based on decades of political rhetoric surrounding Taiwan - it’s highly likely he’s right. China does not hide the fact they will take Taiwan as soon as the US cannot respond.
I’m not sure why that would even be a question. The US is only reason the impending invasion of Taiwan has not yet occurred. This is all very easily verifiable.
I don’t think China feels a need to rush integration when they believe it’s already overdetermined, inevitable. And Taiwan isn’t going anywhere. China knows the imperialist states are in decline, having financialized/de-industrialized themselves into paper tigers. I think this war is likely to make that clear to everyone, including Taiwan’s bourgeoisie.
So? Seriously, so? That’s completely meaningless. “My mate said it could happen so it’s actually already happened!”
Well my mate said that you’re going to murder your family, so how about you explain why it’s ok that you murdered your family?
Lol. “Water? Whats that?” Says fish
But that you somehow know about
Yes. China has many expats. The information was revealed to the world and the Chinese government’s response? Control the Internet, all foreign media, all history books, etc.
These are extremely well known topics across the globe. Don’t take my word for it lol.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1127087/
https://www.britannica.com/event/Tiananmen-Square-incident
https://ieres.elliott.gwu.edu/project/chinas-genocide-against-uyghurs/
https://www.columbia.edu/~qc2218/history.html
Lol. And you claim you’re “progressive”
Ya. The Bernie kind. Incredible isn’t it?
I truly love New Zealand’s system by the way. It’s a shining example in the face of the rest of the world’s failure.
Here’s a market that I feel is very relevant for a “good system.”
https://hdr.undp.org/inequality-adjusted-human-development-index#/indicies/IHDI
Do you agree?
Hahahaha come live in New Zealand you fucking idiot, see what the people think about our great system. Soaring unemployment, housing crisis, cost of living crisis, corruption, austerity, mass exodus to Australia. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Incredible you can’t contain your insults or emotions. Guess you really are part of a shit system. I’m convinced!
I don’t need to be nice to be a racist. And my only emotion Is laughter, my friend. You’ve bought a great deal of humor to myself and other people in this thread.