First of all, to anyone downvoting my Comments about /e/ being a piece of shit, because…
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they advertise themselves as degoogled, but instead let you connect to Google/Microsoft/etc services
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replace all the propriatery not at all Secure Services from Google, with… Drumroll please… Propriatery and not at all Secure Services from themselves and actively encourage it.
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They are For-profit
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and being MORE out of date then even Fairphones stock roms.
… I told you so. Dm your Instance admin, pay them to send the DB entries of your Downvotes on a Thumb drive (or anything else from SSD to 3.5 inchHDD, depending on your preferences), and shove it up your rectum.
But a TL;DR:
/E/ is not Private. They just switch one bad comany to another one.
Being serious, what is /e/ ?
Alternative version of android that removes google stuff, basically.
They are For-profit
Reminder that FOSS is compatible with commercial licenses.
That is not to say /e/ is FOSS. But given the reality of the capitalist hellscape we live in, we should not shame developers (FOSS or not) for not opting to work for free.
Non profit dosent mean everyone who works there cant earn money.
It just means, that you as Shareholder cant just sit on your ass and collect the revenue from your company.
If you own a non profit, and you work as for example a Dev or the head of PR, you can still have a hefty 30$/hour salary.
And the other way around, having a For profit just tells me that you do so little, that you can’t even justify employing yourself at a non profit and giving you an own salary that way, because a non profit has to disclose just how much money you give yourself while underpaying your workers
30$/hr
In 2025 america ain’t really money for somebody with a skill set to do this type of work in the US at least.
Otherwise agree. But realistically Foss will need to outcompete corpos commercially and that requires normies to make these consumption choice while Foss gains mass market appeal.
Obviously fedi is pro FOSS but we are just a rounding error as of now.
Why is letting you connect to services bad? Choices are always good.
I don’t think you have the option to use something else.
Couldn’t you just install whatever apps you want for the services you use?
GrapheneOs continuing to be the only unclowned rom
Graphene is the biggest joke of them all. Only works on Google hardware? lmao
Linaege and Calyx is OK too, since they actually develope software (Linaege does it from scratch, Calyx develops Seedvault etc). even though they are not as rigid as Graphene, they are still ok for normal ungoogled stuff, and to be honest, most people dont need the security Graphene provides them with.
My problem is with Roms like /E/ OS or Iode, which essentially add nothing of value, but instead Fork Linaege, remove Seedvault and everything what isn’t essential, and sell what is essentially a DNS blocker (which you can just use on your VPN slot via apps like DNSnet, or Server side like Adguard or Mullvad DNS) as a new ROM, complete with Subscription Service and (in the case of E OS) even with non encrypted Backup, essentially begging someone to compromise their Servers and steal peoples Photos and Data.
Isn’t calyx dead now
they need new encryption keys for the new lead devs, but that takes months, so it is “dead” for however long that takes
A lead Dev has left and now they have to rebuild much of their workflow, it will only take 4-6 months according to them
If you can’t read the entire line of code, and didn’t fab your own PC, you can’t garantee it.
Pretty ridiculous take I can wire sniff everything coming out of my house and Linux (I use fedora Atomic) and GrapheneOs solve any sort of tracking issues. Then you just have only your ISP to worry about, and that can be solved with appropriate vpn, vps, and/or tor setups
Edit oh you’re a bit account
You’re letting them troll you. It’s far more simple. See part 4: https://lemmy.world/post/35312231
Blatant lie, classic disinformation, who told you to read it alone?
When it bans us forking it, we do not control it, guaranteed. lmao
Ok, you know best bud.
Use GrapheneOS or AOSP GSI if you’re not on Pixel.
never heard of AOSP GSI, I’m on CalyxOS rn but I might temporarily switch because they’re unmaintained whike doing their audit.
This is the site you should visit for GSI info: https://github.com/TrebleDroid/treble_experimentations/wiki
This is a FUD post. Honestly this is just doing a disservice to privacy in general.
Of course /e/OS is not perfect but the title is wrong (/e/OS didn’t suddenly start sending data to OpenAI without user permission, they are relying on OpenAI for a service that is optional PLUS they are explicitly saying that they setup a proxy to anonymize content!) but the content is also wrong :
- of course they “let” you connect to whatever you want. What they do though by default is block trackers within apps including things like Google analytics. I imagine most people who buy a deGoogle phone from them will NOT want to use Google/Microsoft/etc services but if somehow they have to, e.g. a Google Meet meeting, then it’s nice that they can. This is a ridiculous take.
- they replace services and their work is open source https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/ if something is somewhat missing you can just open an issue and request it. If they do provide server services they do not have to provide the code for it (even if they should IMHO) but here again just request it publicly. The goal is to help them do better, not “scold” them. Still here please share what’s actually missing rather than making grand claims.
- they are for-profit, so what? They have a foundation that managers /e/OS itself so AFAICT Murena is to sell phones with installed /e/OS so you can skip that entirely and not give them 1 cent. Even funding like NLNet (which IMHO is some of the best as the project gets to decide on milestones, they are just funding FOSS) encourage projects to have sustainable source of income, what’s your solution there? That they get bought by Google? Do you personally have the kind of money to make them sustainable for years if not decade?
- there is an obsession with getting the very latest updates on the deGoogle community. Yes patching security holes is fundamental to privacy but it’s also NOT the only thing that matters. They are doing their best to catch up but if you have a solution, e.g. a better CD/CI system please do contribute.
TL;DR: /e/OS is not perfect but it’s damn well better than Google!
Also important clarification, the Murena services (backup, STT highlighted there, etc) are NOT MANDATORY! When you boot you can decide to use them, make an account, etc (yes, like other services, including Google) but you just as well refuse and use your device. There is NO account required. The goal is to help people who are not yet self-hosting everything have an alternative rather than… have nothing then give up and fallback to iOS or Googled Android.
Say less. You do not fight efficiently.
open source
Libre software. ‘Open source’ is a deliberately ambiguous phrase, engineered to derail libre software.
they are for-profit, so what? They have a foundation that managers /e/OS itself so AFAICT Murena is to sell phones with installed /e/OS so you can skip that entirely and not give them 1 cent. Even funding like NLNet (which IMHO is some of the best as the project gets to decide on milestones, they are just funding FOSS) encourage projects to have sustainable source of income, what’s your solution there? That they get bought by Google? Do you personally have the kind of money to make them sustainable for years if not decade?
Selling libre software is good. Stay on target.
Of course /e/OS is not perfect
Let me stop you here.
Every phone /e/ supports, Lineage or calyx supports too. Lineage and Calyx are both non profit, implement an actually secure Backup system by default, and do not try to sell you a subscription.
So why should I be defending a company that’s worse then the Alternative, that’s obligated to extract the most possible profit from its costumers, that says it is Private, yet sends your backup and Photos unencrypted to murena servers?
And no, you can’t jUsT uSe aNoThEr bAcKuP sErViCe. These require root access by default, so you can’t just install Seedvault.
Also, I don’t give a fuck if the data to OpenAI is proxied or not. OpenAI is still not Private, and Murena has other, on device, Open source Voice to text options. Yet they, the self proclaimed Private OS, rely on a non private service
let me stop you here.
… So why should I be defending a company that’s worse then the Alternative, that’s obligated to extract the most possible profit from its costumers, that says it is Private, yet sends your backup and Photos unencrypted to murena servers?
You’d have benefited from not stopping there, at least reading the bold parts : nobody has to use Murena servers. You turn on the device, say no, use whatever alternative services you want, that’s it. What Murena (not /e/OS) offers is buying a phone with a working deGoogled Android device. There is a market for that. You don’t have to buy from them and it’s enough. You can criticize it as much as you want, here and elsewhere, and honestly your criticism is welcomed so that they can improve, just don’t make things up.
Source : I’m backing up my photos locally with Immich, no Murena account, no Murena services.
Edit: thanks for sharing https://github.com/seedvault-app/seedvault looks interesting.
There is ample validity to complaining about pushing for profit services, though. Just like we all hate MS for pushing an online account for Windows, we shouldn’t be blanket accepting someone pushing a service here either.
Making it truly optional is great, but it’s still promotion.
nobody has to use Murena servers.
Im just saying, that Murena, with their current services, is in no way better than Google. Also, that can change at any time, since the one making the Services and the one making the OS is the same Murena, so theres nothing stopping them to vertically integrate their Services more and more, until it becomes the only real option
just like Google and Apple did it.
Google started as a company that gave extraordinary Services for cheap to people, and only once it got popular, they started selling user data and doing questionable shit as result of them not really caring about Data Security and storing data unencrypted on their Servers.
Murena is a company that is giving extraordinary Services for sometimes Cheaper than the non Privacy friendly option, and once it gets popular, they still will be reserving the right to start selling user data and do Questionable shit as a result of them not caring about Data Security and storing data unencrypted on their Servers.
Yes, they did not sell your data. Yet. They did not release your Data to authorities. Yet. Their Service, being unencrypted, baked deep into the OS (with their Backup) shows just how much they could go that route at any time, and by having a mostly noobie audience, they wont get much shit for it probably
For me, its just like the Mastodon vs. Bluesky thing
Yes, /e/ is currently better than Google, but /e/ can turn as bad as Google any time. Unlike something like Proton or other Backup systems, since they have the option to encrypt your Photos and therefore make them Availible only to the user.
Murena, with their current services, is in no way better than Google.
Honestly you seem to understand the technical side of things but I don’t think you fully grasp the economical scale of Google. Murena is literally nobody, like 10 guys in a small shop in Paris, the CEO walking around, few extra staff international, some contributions here and there, it’s not symbolic and I don’t want to diminish their effort but it’s really tiny. Your local supermarket probably has more staff than they do!
Meanwhile… Alphabet who owns Google is nearly ~200k people on payrolls, thousands more outsourced via 3rd party services (e.g. data annotation, social network “cleaning”, etc) and the 4th largest corporation in market capital.
Honestly the comparison is not even apple versus orange.
Same for Apple, 3rd market cap, ~150k employees.
Yet… maybe more importantly, Murena has 0 lock-in, none. Meanwhile Apple and Google literally own the mobile market. It’s practically impossible to buy a phone without at some point using one of these 2.
So finding imperfections in /e/OS and Murena is fine, again hopefully helping them to grow out of those potential problems, but the comparison … I don’t even know why do it in the first place. Murena literally can not become Google.
Google and Apple were once the 10 employee nobodies going against behemoths.
Google also used to have no lock in, as well. It’s original selling point was an open ecosystem with no lock in, unlike Apple.
You’re like a walking definition of ‘those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it’
Check my post history, I often link to Information Rules: A Strategic Guide to the Network Economy by Carl Shapiro and Hal R. Varian that precisely has chapters on lock-in. If you are not aware who Hal Varian is he was Chief Economist at Google. I don’t know how much you think you know about “history” but I’m sure you do not know what I did study or not on the topic.
PS: if one day Murena becomes the size of Google or Apple according to pretty much any metric, I’ll buy you a bottle of Champagne and kiss your feet to apologize of my naivety. You can archive that post.
Nothing you wrote was a response to what I wrote.
I also don’t care what you ‘studied’. I lived it. Google and Apple were literally, and this is a quantifiable fact and not an opinion as you seem to be treating it in your response, the 10 person startups that were going against industry behemoths.
Yahoo was, at the time, was a Juggernaut.
I.B.M., at the time, was a Juggernaut.
Google was just a comparison. Of course Murena will not become as strong globally, but if we look at it relatively to the Costum ROM community, they have quite a fair share already.
Don’t take everything literally. I just said, that having the track record that /e/ has regarding actual Privacy and not relying on big tech, which dosent take much effort since they literally fork LinaegeOS, which already dosent rely on big tech, I don’t think its a good idea to let them become any stronger than they need to be, since, like I just pointed out
Murena does not do any substancial Development of Costum Roms. They just take Linaege, remove all the Open source software like Seedvault, and instead implement their own security nightmares.
And no, tracker blocking is not a good reason to make your own Costum Rom. There are literal free apps on Fdroid which do it already, and better. Don’t like it? Switch to the DNS server of adguard, they do that too. Or mullvad. Or whatever.
Murena as a company is literally a leech just like Iode, which Attach themselves to Linaege (which dosent say they are Private at all), add a fucking DNS blocker, call it a day, and act like they just made Linaege Private.
Murena or Iode aren’t about development or customization, it’s about being able to actually buy a phone and use it without Google services, no tinkering. You might not be the audience, you might have other criteria for what constitute privacy, but basically if you can AND want to install a custom ROM, you are not their market.
None of the actors you mentioned, e.g. LineageOS, AdGuard, MullVad, SeedVault, and all the other “OS” in the name, etc do that so it’s not relevant. I’m not saying they are not important but it’s a different product entirely.
There are 3rd Party stores for Those too.
Its just not plastered on the Main page of the project
But I wouldnt argue that if you already want a degoogled phone, you have researched enough to at least know where to Ask for such websites
Ok, the openAI thing is not great. However…
they advertise themselves as degoogled, but instead let you connect to Google/Microsoft/etc services
What the fuck are you talking about? Degoogled doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be allowed to connect to Google services. It just mean that it doesn’t require Google services to function and that the default configuration shouldn’t include any Google services. If the end user actively wants to use google/microsoft/etc services then they should be able to. It seems as though you are advocating for an open source operating system to lock itself down from allowing the end user to use certain features, which is against the FOSS ethos. Remember, “free” as in “freedom.”
Oh nice! Now anyone can frame me for any crime, using AI generated videos!
In the thread they give their reasons and they are believeable. If you don’t want to use what’s offered SWAP IT. The default is for gen pop who want a useful phone with no threat model other than wanting less google. If you want something else then use that stop raging that is is somehow totally out of order how dare they. Its childish.
GrapheneOS is fucking king a for a reason. The main dev was a cunt but he wasn’t wrong.
Peoples need to learn to see through PR, good or bad, and focus on specs.
It seems after years of bullshit PR, we can safely say that GrapheneOS thesis stood the test of time.
Google took notice and now fighting us.
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The main dev didn’t want to eat shit from the Teclore, CalyxOS team and Futo, so they bullied him to silence.
Wait FUTO bullied the main dev as well? That’s a shame
There was no bullying, this is a complete fabrication on the part of Daniel Micay (founder of GrapheneOS). Rossmann made several positive videos about GrapheneOS and encouraged his viewers to use it themselves. He later made one video where he explained why he was no longer comfortable using it after Micay went on an insanely unhinged Discord DMs rant accusing Rossmann of “attacking and abusing me and the project” after Rossman left a single comment on a Techlore video. What was this incredibly abusive and inflammatory comment?
“This is informative, and unfortunate.”
Rossmann said he no longer felt comfortable having GrapheneOS on his phone, considering Micay was the one developing it and now clearly held a grudge. I think that’s pretty reasonable and logical, but apparently it was so triggering for the GrapheneOS shills that to this day they continue to push these entirely fake narratives about Rossmann being a “bully” and an “abuser”. All the DMs are in the video I linked, you can decide for yourself whether Micay is an unhinged lunatic or the Second Coming of Christ.
You’re skipping some very important facts here. Daniel was swatted 3 times around the time this all happened. The swatter even was in contact with the GrapheneOS team (not including me at the time) and even said that they were a Techlore fan. So when Rossmann commented on that video, which makes Daniel come off as a crazy person, Daniel was understandably upset. Again, Techlore video was already bad enough, swatting, then a “friendly” person with a large following makes that comment.
So what does Rossmann do? He makes a video while this is happening. What kind of person does that? He claimed that he was deleting GrapheneOS because he no longer trusted the OS, but that was a lie.
Micay is an unhinged lunatic
Saying something like this is completely inappropriate.
You’re skipping some very important facts here.
No I’m not. All the excuses about “swatting”, “autism” and everything else are in the Rossmann video I linked above. The way Micay behaved based on that single YouTube comment was the behaviour of an unhinged lunatic. If you think it’s acceptable to send hundreds of messages to people threatening them over a single comment as benign as that one, maybe you’re an unhinged lunatic as well. This is psychotic, controlling behaviour and is potentially very dangerous. I’m not sure why you can’t see that.
Luis Rossman got into with the main dev… At the time it seemed like Luis was right
However due what happened recently with calyx guy and how him and Luis have business connection.
I am reconsidering what actually happened back then.
GOS dev is socially inept but he was right from technical perspective and looks like he was bullied. So the lashing out might have been justified.
But like I said, maybe it it is time for us to look at substance over form. Shiti PR has been weaponized against peasant class.
Elites will literally tell you what you want to hear on tv while robbing you and the normies larp that propaganda as if they came up within.
With that being futo makes good product too
But graphene is clearly superior to CalyxOS
I’m kind of out of the loop for everything outside of knowing about Grephene’s existence. Is there a TL;DR or summary somewhere of what all happened? What was he right about?
No tldr… I am just going off my memory as a shit poster
But to address your core request.
The degoogle privacy community has a running arguement regarding what’s the best way to degoogle for privacy
Currently there are two options microg which spoofs GPS but still does some connections ie calyxOs approach among other RPMs
OR
Sandboxed GPS ie GrapheneOS approach. Where you just run the apps but gos limits what gps can track. You do need a Google account but it is easy to get a dummy.
As side note the best is gos with NO sandboxed gps but realistically normies joining the movement need GPS capabilities.
Either one is better than normie phone but if you care about privacy AND security, gos is king.
The improvements they made to android even gets upstreamed by Google creeps.
CalyxOS development is spotty. Obviously I support them two, extra options are good and they cover more phones.
Gos only does pixel, which is problematic but that’s just what can be done currently.
Minor nit: you don’t need a Google account even with GPS. I have sandboxed GPS without an account and use aurora store for things I can’t get via obtanium/F-droid.
This used to work for me but then they started forcing the play store too and account which then required an account. So I just stopped using GPS all together.
But thank you for pointing just goes to show experience can be different and people should play around for their set up.
For me now it is an ideological battle. Fuck Google
Ah I see, thanks! It’s really sad that ROM hardware support is so limited these days. I’d really love to run Graphene on S25 hardware :(
LineageOS covers a lot of devices but I can NOT recommend in good faith as a personal phone decide.
It is made in some weird development mode and can’t lock the bootloader.
Both of these make very insecure if you lose physical control. It is a decent degoogle.
Sammy is going anti ROM and will prevent people from unlocking Bootloader going forward it seems.
On personal level, I would advise against focusing on hard ware. I used to be a hardware whore myself. But in 2025 privacy/security should be the defining factor in cell phone decision. I can’t think of anything more personal.
Micay wasn’t right about anything, he is an unhinged lunatic. If there really was some giant conspiracy where all these YouTubers like Rossmann and Techlore were trying to take down GrapheneOS on behalf of CalyxOS, why did both of those channels publish multiple positive videos about GrapheneOS recommending it to their viewers? Rossmann has never even criticised GrapheneOS itself, only Micay. And even then, that was only because Micay started threatening Rossmann because of a single YouTube comment he left on the Techlore video (see my above comment for context). Rossmann has only ever said that he no longer feels comfortable using GrapehenOS on his personal device due to Micay’s personal grudge.
Rossmann has only ever said that he no longer feels comfortable using GrapehenOS on his personal device due to Micay’s personal grudge.
Which was a lie. He kept using GrapheneOS for a long time after that. Even though targeted updates aren’t possible he left his video up with that disinformation anyway.
Rossmann has never even criticised GrapheneOS itself, only Micay.
He didn’t have to. All he needed to do was make people think the lead developer was crazy and that the OS isn’t trustworthy. His video has negatively affected GrapheneOS for sure. Still does considering comments like these…
he is an unhinged lunatic
and these.
I just realised you’re a mod of a GrapheneOS community. Your defending of Micay’s insane behaviour makes so much more sense now.
Well, my previous statement was kinda misleading. Louis Rossman made ~2 vids about Micay being a dick to him and using autism as an excuse for his behaviour.
Rossman has joint financial interest with calyx guy who is now leaving calyx.
There is more to that story IMHO
I just dived into that rabbit hole, heres what I could understand until now:
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Theres this Business guy, who owns/Controls much of the Calyx Infrastructure.
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When Copperhead, a for Profit Company tried to buy up Graphene, the Calyx Guy was (according to Graphene Mastodon team) very prominent and they tried to pressure them into buying it up
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Now it backfired for Calyx as the Business guy did a
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On the team, and now they have to change all the Infrastructure and Keys in order to make their workflow secure again
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Louis has a Telecom Company with that dude as co-founder, apparently according to some legal document
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Also, very many other OSs have a Problem with Graphene, as they want to be the next Private ROM, but they just wont put in the Time to do anything more then fork Linaege and add their own Propriatery stuff (looking at you, Iode), so they very often try to make alligations against Graphene, only to be completely wrong
Tbh, I just dont get ROMs, just because you cant beat Graphene dosent mean that everyone needs the kind of Security Graphene gives you. Just dont fuck up, no matter how hard it apparently is.
iodéOS has never made allegations against GrapheneOS. You are spreading so much conspiracy disinformation in this thread, it’s crazy you haven’t been called out more for it.
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Watching from the sidelines as a LOS ROM user, I’m disappointed by the replies from the devs. From mischaracterizing surprise, anger and generally negative feedback as positive praise to completely ignoring the two main asks of the community. For me, there are other red flags, but I’ll leave it alone.
Ego seems to be coming into play here, and the repeated references to GrapheneOS seem to reinforce that. Handwaving new and unique criticism as if it is a continuation of an older conflict is pretty poor form.
The basic issue as I see it (as a non-user of their platform) is to market your OS the way they do while also adding this feature without notice or explanation. Their claim that they want to stay relevant and include popular features is a straw man. There are other ways to implement it, and other ways to introduce it to the community. But that’s not relevant. Their explanation could be used to justify abandoning their stated objective of anti-big tech in any/all ways. Saying people want big corporate tech features is weak and obviously not in parity with the stated mission of privacy-first.
It’s not always the poor choices that sink user trust; sometimes it’s a tone deaf response or unexplained motives, or opaque financial incentive structure.
Sometimes it’s all of the above. This seems to be one of those cases.
Ty @Luffy879 for sharing.
E: spelling
It is a continuation of an old conflict. Remember the Daniel Micay drama?
send the DB entries of your Downvotes on a Thumb drive (or anything else from SSD to 3.5 inchHDD, depending on your preferences), and shove it up your rectum.
Do not threaten them with a good time
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I am a right muppet. I recommended e/OS a few days ago.
heres me old 12 year old Samsung S4.
Its got the e/OS, recovery-e-2.2-r-20240719418592-dev-jfltexx running with android 11
Those were that days. 16gb with 2gb ram, a fucking powerhouse, and more importantly, no fucking ai shit
I should say its my kitchen timer.
No more udates.
Working like a charm, battery last a week.
looks like I wont be using anymore of e/OS roms.
Half my family have e/OS installed.
I will be busy removing e/OS, and that ai shit with it, over the next few days.
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Makes me curious as to what happened here
Nothing exciting. als commented that he likes some FUTO software, among other things because it’s Open Source, and I responded that it is not.
It’s kind of dumb to remove any mentions of it, given it’s source available.
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Every year people have to re-find out /e/ calyx and lineage were never focused on privacy and or security.
Well, you can make LOS decently private with intelligent use, but you can forget about security. I use it on my Redmi 4X (originally with android 7, when AVB wasn’t even a thing yet), so the security is still better than the original firmware. It’s a tool to decent-ify security and usability of old hardware, it isnt a miracle or a hardened os.
Privacy is the Main point spoken of in both the websites.
And don’t come up with some „but privacy means big tech and OpenAI isn’t big tech” bullcrap.
The word comes up 3 times in /e/, and the whole paragraph in Calyx is all about being spied on by big entities
Calyx is all about being spied on by big entities
?
Look at the friggin´ Screenshot of their website
…?
What are we supposed to be looking at here?
