
- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@lemmy.bestiver.se


lobsters score: 1 · tags: art
I think there’s an important difference between art, craft, and (for a lack of a better term) “getting stuff done”.
Art, to me, is fundamentally about creative expression that is not necessarily driven by a practical purpose (although good art conveys ideas, emotions or values). A recent example of this might by Lyra Rebane’s creative abuse of QR codes.
Craft is about cleverly and efficiently solving problems, which can involve bits of art by solving the problems in creative or aesthetically pleasing ways but the fundamental motivation and aim feels different.
I’m not convinced that art is a necessary (or common) part of day-to-day software work and I don’t feel like software artists are particularly impacted by AI, unlike craft, where the impact of AI feels significant.
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…anymore. Like many other professions in the past. Chemists, blacksmiths, physicists. You remember the layers boom? Things change. Now us.
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More generally, Improv Everywhere’s 2009 Subway Art Gallery demonstrated to me that “art” is a perspective with which one can view any object, so I think it’s never wrong to call something “art”. But I find more artistic value in works that satisfy challenging contraints. The most common source of artistic value in programs is the way their code was optimized to be easily readable and maintainable by a human while still implementing the required behavior.
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The Dwarf Fortress codebase. It’s not open source, but at some point they didn’t even have it in version control [1]. That’s so wild to me. It’s art.
In terms of stuff where the source is available, for me that’s pretty much anything from the demo scene. This one for example: https://js1k.com/2012-love/demo/1100 - or https://frankforce.com/city-in-a-bottle-a-256-byte-raycasting-system/
[1] March 2013: “I don’t use version control – I didn’t like the feeling of having the code get committed into a black box thingy with no immediate upside” - March 2016: “I don’t even use version control. If you don’t know what that is then you’re not gonna yell at me. If you even know what version control is you’re gonna be like, ‘You don’t use version control? You don’t use source control? What is wrong with you? How can you even work? I’m just not cut out for it, in a sense. It’s been 15 years, so the reasons have change over time, but that’s my current understanding of it.” - March 2023: “I’ve got Discord channels to check and version control stuff to use now, so the process is definitely a little more involved”
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I think one thing that makes programming special in comparison to a lot of more traditional art forms is the large fraction of the work that is essentially throwaway research, which AIs are great at, and I don’t really have fond memories of digging through datasheets and crappy framework docs and occasionally upstream source just to figure out how to do some operation. Good docs can be a joy to use, but “things with good docs” unfortunately make up a small fraction of my dependencies.
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the large fraction of the work that is essentially throwaway research
Sketches? Noodling around on the guitar?
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It is so important to realize this, so that we can get together with other affected professions. Together, we are much stronger, and we have a much better chance of pushing back GenAI.
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Programming is craft, and like any other craft it can turn into art. At the same time, most people don’t care about craft ( or beauty ). The first reason art and necessity were aligned for a long time was because artful good is often more efficient, more maintainable. The second is that code is the infrastructure of many systems. The first is gone with AI as it changes the cost equation, the second remains but seems to be wilfully ignored in a tsunami of AI PR.
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It’s only art for fellow programmers. Nobody outside of this really cares. There isn’t really any perceptible distinction between “artisan code” and “AI code” - when it runs.
So it does matter, a lot, for OSS. IMHO the core of OSS is just sharing code, beyond what enterprise then builds upon it. But outside of our nerd circles, why would anybody care.
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It’s only art for fellow programmers. Nobody outside of this really cares.
I’d argue the same can be said of any creative discipline! A musician is using creative techniques and including musical references and callbacks that likely only other musicians (and music enthusiasts/critics) will be able to pick up on. A conceptual artist is creating their work within a longer conversation of other conceptual artwork—referencing prior techniques, critiquing past works and artists—that is mostly legible to artists, curators, historians, and critics with specialized knowledge of the field. (Maybe a parallel in programming would be seeing an I/O-bound Rust program rely exclusively on manual io_uring syscalls as a “critique” of async/await.)
In these cases, a layperson might only see the pragmatic function of these works (“this song sounds good” or “the art looks pretty”); but for someone with familiarity with a particular practice, the work can still be understood more profoundly. If anything, I’d argue that this makes programming even more like art in general, since just like in other creative disciplines, appreciating a work beyond a surface level requires understanding the history and practice of the discipline it’s a part of :^)
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No, you cannot say that about every creative discipline. In programming, if you don’t look at the code, you literally can’t perceive anything; UI/UX is something else than programming.
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A Shepherd that will listen “Gabriel’s Oboe” or the “Lonely Shepherd” live, will be moved. It doesn’t take a trained ear to recognize greatness.
If you have to “explain” then it’s already on a different tier. If you need to explain for 40 minutes, like Pollock’s paintings at the MET then it’s just marketing…
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Code can be art, but most code exists only to solve a problem.
Paint can be used to create an artwork, but most paint in the world is used for weatherproofing and uncreative solid surfaces.
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additionally, commercial weatherproofing paint can be used to create art
i do think that if you use AI agents to write the code, the code itself is unlikely to be very artistic. but it can be used in the process of making art
you can even use it for creating code-as-art, though it’s probably best used for spinning up test harnesses or example uses or other things “around the shop”, rather than letting it hold the pen.
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I think the article touches on this fairly directly.
Berger reveals that the reality of this portrait is that a poor old painter needed some work, and some officials probably thought it might be nice to have an official portrait. So they paid some money to the poor old man, and he painted it, and then they had a painting. It’s a well-executed portrait of a group of people. Beautiful, even. But it was work commissioned for a fairly mundane purpose and it suited that purpose just fine. It was not, and is not, a divine relic.
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Paint can be used to create an artwork, but most paint in the world is used for weatherproofing and uncreative solid surfaces.
You say this like walls can’t be painted sloppily, and people don’t complain about that? Like you can’t apply the wrong kind of paint, or the right kind of paint wrongly. You say it as if house painters don’t hold themselves and other painters to some kind of standard?
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Sure, but while it would be silly to design a machine to paint murals of its own invention, a machine to efficiently paint a wall correctly would be awesome.
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Code can be Beautiful
I would describe myself as a “code poet”
I can relate to these. What’s been sad tho is hearing on interviews artists (broad term) say things like art must come from humans to have meaning, but AI is good for stuff like code. I often feel like we are in the same bucket (but maybe that’s what happens after you take the FP pill & down similar rabbit holes).
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people are more likely to think their field is special and cannot be done justice by GenAI, but everything else they arent an expert on (ie lower ability to discern slop) is fair game
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And since nobody starts in a field as an expert, GenAI is fair game for everything.
What’s even more terrible is that once people see it as another tool on the workbench, are trained that way, and grow up that way, they won’t even understand what we’re all whining about.
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“It’s horrible at my particular programming language & in my field, but I can trust its plausible responses for things I understand less well”
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I think part of the problem is that many developers don’t have much self-respect and have trouble valuing their own work, even though we tend to get compensated very well for that work - an interesting paradox!
It makes some sense though, as “the best code is no code”, and almost everyone has seen their hard work get unused or replaced by something else.
On top of that the general public tends to view coding as menial and rigid, something that requires no creativity.
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even though we tend to get compensated very well for that work - an interesting paradox!
I suspect they’re even connected… if you’re used to extreme external validation then it’s easy to neglect building up an internal sense of what or why you’re even doing.
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Interesting observation! We know that impostor syndrome is quite widespread in our industry.
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requires no creativity.
Y’all need to try more languages then! “One way to do it” is overrated :P
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I think at some point (probably the late 90s to early 00s), coding transitioned from something done as a public good to something engineered to make as much money as possible, and that’s when the market was flooded with devs who saw it that way too.
I imagine there’s a lot of overlap between these folks and the “you’ll get left behind” crowd.
Probably not a hot take: a lot of devs are overcompensated for a job that leaves them with quite a bit of free time during the day, or with a lot of overhead spent in ceremonies and design meetings that aren’t really necessary.
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They’re not over compensated since do business makes more from them than their compensation. But they are highly compensated compared to many fields yes
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No, I do mean overcompensated. I’m unemployed right now, and the salary ranges I see in descriptions for senior-level positions are absurd. I don’t think anyone needs to make more than $200k a year, whether they’re a CEO or writing code.
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It sounds like you’re looking at FAANG type businesses in the US. In Europe at least I haven’t seen such outrageous salaries.
Maybe those salaries are normal in the bay area because of the equally outrageous housing prices there?
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Sure, I don’t think anyone needs to make over $50k a year. But that doesn’t mean they’re overcompensated. I had a coworker once who through one month of work netted the company over a million a year forever. He was woefully undercompensated relative to his value to the company at 200k
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